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#Post#: 54735--------------------------------------------------
Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: samosa
Date: January 23, 2025, 11:31 am
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Need your guidance on the following please.
My car went in for a service near the end of November 2024. BMW
issued me with a hire/courtesy car.
Yesterday (24/01/2025) I received an email notification from the
hire company together with a PCN (link below).
PCN:
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WPka0mM-JbgWGNnDnCK-S4piIVWS2v4m/view?usp=sharing
The hire company have "made a representation to the issuer and
transfer liability to you as the hirer of the vehicle. The PCN
should then be reissued to you directly for resolution"
I am currently waiting for the PCN to be reissued by Southwark
to my Ltd company.
This shouldn't make a difference to the matter, but whilst
writing and for the sake of completeness, the car is leased to
my Ltd company. I am the company director.
Photographic evidence provide by the council is available here:
HTML https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1EvL0KhHvucHRq4qABgySRilMRxrfEAhf?usp=sharing
Given the time that has lapsed, is the council out of time to
issue the NTO? Are their any other grounds to dispute this PCN
please?
Thank you in advance for your guidance.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 54817--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: January 23, 2025, 4:51 pm
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In terms of timescales, the original PCN was served by a CEO to
the car. There is then a period of 28 days for the PCN to be
either paid or representations submitted. After expiry of this
time period, the council can serve a Notice to Owner on the
registered keeper of the car, which is the hire company. The
hire company then have 28 days in which to submit reps on the
basis of their being a hire company, naming your company as the
hiring party on the date of the alleged contravention. The
council, on receiving those reps, can then accept them and
cancel the NtO and serve one on your company. They have 28 days
from cancelling the first NtO to serve a second NtO.
The PCN was dated 24th November, so you can work out the
approximate end date of the period within which they must serve
an NtO on your company. At the moment, I don't think they are
yet out-of-time.
You say you are expecting a PCN but it will be a Notice to
Owner. May I assume the original PCN was never seen on the car ?
As for the possibility of grounds for a representation, the
council photos show the car parked right next to the sign
stating the bay is for permit holders only Mon-Sun 8.00am to
11.00pm. PCN is timed at 18.05, so well within the restricted
period. A PCN is shown as on the car.
#Post#: 54854--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: samosa
Date: January 24, 2025, 4:11 am
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--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> In terms of timescales, the original PCN was served by a CEO
to the car. There is then a period of 28 days for the PCN to be
either paid or representations submitted. After expiry of this
time period, the council can serve a Notice to Owner on the
registered keeper of the car, which is the hire company. The
hire company then have 28 days in which to submit reps on the
basis of their being a hire company, naming your company as the
hiring party on the date of the alleged contravention. The
council, on receiving those reps, can then accept them and
cancel the NtO and serve one on your company. They have 28 days
from cancelling the first NtO to serve a second NtO.
>
> The PCN was dated 24th November, so you can work out the
approximate end date of the period within which they must serve
an NtO on your company. At the moment, I don't think they are
yet out-of-time.
>
> You say you are expecting a PCN but it will be a Notice to
Owner. May I assume the original PCN was never seen on the car ?
>
> As for the possibility of grounds for a representation, the
council photos show the car parked right next to the sign
stating the bay is for permit holders only Mon-Sun 8.00am to
11.00pm. PCN is timed at 18.05, so well within the restricted
period. A PCN is shown as on the car.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you for explaining the process and time periods in which
the notices are served.
You are absolutely correct in pointing out what you have
referred to in respect of the the photos. I cannot express how
silly I feel for not seeing the "Permit Holders only" signage.
I saw the suspension notice and simply assumed it applied to pay
& display. But given the suspension dates were in the future, I
thought I was ok to park given how late it was in the evening.
That is entirely my own error.
Whilst the photo clearly shows the ticket attached to the
windscreen, what is odd, however, is that the ticket was not on
the car when I returned to it. Had I received it then, I would
have been on this portal sooner. I presume I have also lost out
on the opportunity to pay a discounted rate now that it is at
NTO stage? What would you suggest my options are now?
#Post#: 54864--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: January 24, 2025, 5:01 am
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First of all you need an NtO in your company's name; only then
can you submit representations. I suggest you mention that no
PCN was found on the car, so you lost the opportunity to pay the
discounted amount.
Don't forget that it they are very late serving the NtO, you may
have the argument for Out-of-Time.
#Post#: 54869--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: January 24, 2025, 5:41 am
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OP, you wrote:
My car went in for a service near the end of November 2024. BMW
issued me with a hire/courtesy car.
So whether you may be considered to be the 'owner' for the
purposes of enforcement (in other words liable for the penalty)
is a matter of fact and law.
You can only be liable if you are the 'hirer' and only then if
there is a 'hiring agreement'. Sorry for all the quotation marks
but these are terms defined in law.
From a quick scan of your post, I would say that you cannot be
liable as regards parking legislation because you did not hire
the car. The 'hiring agreement' was between the registered
keeper and BMW(possibly even an insurance company). The car was
simply allocated to you to drive as a courtesy.
So, what paperwork do you have regarding 'BMW issued me with a
hire/courtesy car'?
#Post#: 58391--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: samosa
Date: February 16, 2025, 12:24 pm
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Ok here's the latest (interesting) update.....
I have (in the past few days) received the following PCN:
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1llZvNfZjxA6xYO7dgfaJYFdm-X_OFaPk/view?usp=sharing
It appears that BMW/the hire company have provided my personal
name & address - I presume because this is the only information
they had on file. However, the car is, in fact, leased by my
Ltd Company (of which I am a company director).
Since it is my LTD company which was the user of the vehicle at
that time, I intend to submit a Representation that "I was not
the owner of the vehicle at the time of the alleged
contravention" together with my LTD company's details. Is this
the right thing to do?
#Post#: 58425--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: February 16, 2025, 3:19 pm
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Go tom their website and screenshot the payment status and
report back please.
#Post#: 58566--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: samosa
Date: February 17, 2025, 9:46 am
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--- Quote from: Hippocrates link ---
>
> Go tom their website and screenshot the payment status and
report back please.
>
--- End Quote ---
Here is a link to the screenshot:
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MgTJ7LnlDwO68R_rFNFeYpMoFQNBK6JH/view?usp=sharing
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MgTJ7LnlDwO68R_rFNFeYpMoFQNBK6JH/view?usp=sharing
#Post#: 58647--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: February 17, 2025, 3:57 pm
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Excellent: a threat which will go against them! Stick it in the
file. More than happy to deal with this one at the fifth set if
necessary.
They are one of three with similar issues! Just won one v
Lambeth today.
#Post#: 58657--------------------------------------------------
Re: Southwark - PCN Code 12
DIR By: samosa
Date: February 17, 2025, 4:31 pm
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Do I proceed as I suggested it should I be doing something
different? Apologies for the naive question, how should I be
responding to the local story authority?
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