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#Post#: 54659--------------------------------------------------
Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
DIR By: gme
Date: January 23, 2025, 5:20 am
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1. Received a notice to keeper about overstaying at Meadowhall
shopping centre. Parking charge notice has been issued. You’re
apparently allowed 14 hours combined stay over a 7 day period,
Monday to Sunday.
2. The letter claims the driver visited on 30th December for 10
hours, 10 mins, and 4th January for 10 hours, 19 mins.
3. The driver did visit at those times for those durations, but
was unaware there was a week long limit on the maximum total
stay. The driver has been visiting the location regularly for
two decades, there are obvious restrictions on blue badge and
parent parking bags as these bays are marked, but there is
apparently signage regarding the 14 hour limit which was either
missed upon arrival, or no attention paid to it as previously it
has only referred to the disabled bays and parent and child bays
which the driver has no intention of using. There is also known
restrictions on Meadowhall staff using the customer car parks
which the driver would also assume would be a part of any
signage, so again it’s not something which the driver would
check for updates on during every visit to the location. The
driver is not a Meadowhall employee.
4. The driver was at the location for those visits, with a
single bank transaction from a shop on each occasion showing
they were a paying customer, though the PCN only refers to a
maximum combined stay of 14 hours at the location, nothing else
regarding the terms and conditions on the signage, so unsure if
you have to make a transaction or not. You can visit the
location and not spend money, it’s a shopping centre so you
could sit in there all day and not buy anything in theory.
5. The 14 hour limit was introduced a month ago according to a
Google search. Again, the Driver was unaware of the signs being
changed as there has always been signs regarding the disabled
bays, parent bays and staff using customer car parks.
6. The date of issue was 8th January, the letter only arrived
yesterday (22nd Jan). There’s a 14 day window to pay a reduced
fee, which has been missed. No clue as to why the letter took so
long to arrive, likely due to Royal Mail delays. This means the
reduced payment window has been missed through no fault of the
drivers own.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 54663--------------------------------------------------
Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
DIR By: b789
Date: January 23, 2025, 5:42 am
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Welcome. SO any things wrong with that Parking Charge Notice
(PCN). Please stop fretting over the "mugs discount" you have
missed. Do you always pay speculative invoices from private
companies just because there is a 40% discount offered?
If you follow the advice you won't be paying a penny to Minster
Baywatch.
What do the signs at the location say? Can you get some photos
of them? Is there any mention of 'Bransby Wilson' on the signs?
Hopefully, you have not been in touch with them yet.
If the terms of the car park have materially changed within the
last 4 months, they should have had very clear and prominent
signs notifying drivers of the material changes. This is a
requirement according to the BPA/IPC Private Parking Single Code
of Practice (PPSCoP), section 3.4 which states:
--- Quote ---
> 3.4. Material changes – notices
>
> Where there is any material change to any pre-existing terms
and conditions that would not be immediately apparent to a
driver entering controlled land that is or has been open for
public parking, the parking operator must place additional
(temporary) notices at the site entrance for a period of not
less than 4 months from the date of the change making it clear
that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular
visitors who might be familiar with the old terms do not
inadvertently incur parking charges.
>
> NOTE: Examples of material changes can include introduction of
parking enforcement where none has previously applied,
introduction of time-limited free parking, or reductions in the
time limit within which free parking is available. Given the
need to avoid confusion and clutter at entrances the test is
whether the fact that a change has been made is clearly
signalled to drivers on entering the land and the nature of the
change is clearly displayed thereafter – it may also be
necessary to install repeater notices depending on the scale of
the premises.
--- End Quote ---
The postal Notice to Keeper (NtK) you have received is not fully
compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which means that
they cannot hold the Keeper liable. As the Keeper, you are under
no legal obligation to identify the driver to an unregulated
private parking company. They have failed to note the "period of
parking" as required by paragraph 9(2)(b) of PoFA.
So, before you attempt to appeal this, please answer the
questions I asked earlier in the post.
#Post#: 54668--------------------------------------------------
Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
DIR By: gme
Date: January 23, 2025, 5:59 am
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Thanks for the helpful response. I’ve no photos myself as I’m
not near Meadowhall at present, but there’s photos I’ve found
online:
HTML https://imgur.com/a/25aaDul
These are examples of previous signage that I’m aware of, which
mainly refer to the car park for being for customer use and
having the right permits for marked bays.
HTML https://imgur.com/a/JRJ1p1J
Here is an image I found which shows the updated terms.
These big yellow signs are throughout the car park, I’m not
aware of any other signs indicating they have been updated. At
the entrance to Meadowhall there are some upright A1 poster
holders which do state that you must register for child & parent
bays, these have been in place for a while as that was a new
rule introduced last year as well. Nothing regarding 14 hour
maximum stay as far as I saw.
Edit: there is another page with photos of the ANPR camera shots
of the car entering/exiting, and a page of legal jargon.
#Post#: 54673--------------------------------------------------
Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
DIR By: b789
Date: January 23, 2025, 6:06 am
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So where are the signs that show the tariffs and the terms for
breach of those tariffs? The parent & child signs are incapable
of forming any contract. The other signs with the large £100 on
them are also impossible to read, thus breaching the operators
ATA code of practice.
Where is this "letter" you say states "The letter claims the
driver visited on 30th December for 10 hours, 10 mins, and 4th
January for 10 hours, 19 mins."? You've only shown us the NtK.
You said that "The 14 hour limit was introduced a month ago
according to a Google search." Where is this material change
notified?
#Post#: 54675--------------------------------------------------
Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
DIR By: gme
Date: January 23, 2025, 6:18 am
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I’ve attached ‘the letter’, these is the ANPR cameras showing
the days/times of entry, which relates to the 20 hours
cumulative time on premises which I was referring to.
No notice of change has been made, to my knowledge. I’ve since
googled it and seen a few articles published but I don’t follow
the news outlets that have reported on it.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 54699--------------------------------------------------
Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
DIR By: b789
Date: January 23, 2025, 9:28 am
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Without seeing the signs that formed the contract with the
driver, it is difficult to progress this for now.
The "notice of change" is nothing to do with notices in the
local media. Any material change to the terms and conditions of
parking have to be notified on the signage at the location. It
has to be prominent and obvious. It has to notify regular users
that there have been changes to the terms and where to fond
these changes.
#Post#: 54703--------------------------------------------------
Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
DIR By: gme
Date: January 23, 2025, 9:56 am
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There’s one singular sign on entry, I’ve been to look today,
this states that the terms have changed and that’s it. It
doesn’t state what or when. The parent and child permits were
introduced in August 2013 and various additional signs warning
specifically of this have been in place since. I’m unsure when
the time limit changes were imposed, the earliest mention I can
find online is 4th December but these are all unrelated social
media posts. The driver is also unaware of these additional
changes or these signs, aside from the parent and child updates.
HTML https://imgur.com/a/uWrumEZ
The above link includes a screenshot showing the placement on
entry and a close up of what it reads. I didn’t notice it on
entry as I was focused on the car on the left who was
approaching the junction as I was about to make the turn, it’s
my right of way but you do have to be cautious. When I reviewed
my dashcam footage that’s when I spotted the sign. The driver
also states they have never seen that sign before in their life.
It’s unknown if it was there during the time of the alleged
infringements.
There are several car parks and entry points and when I checked
my own dashcam footage of visiting the location personally on
unrelated occasions, I can’t see that same sign repeated, there
are other signs but they’re all in different formats, with
different layouts and fonts, nothing is cohesive and nothing is
particularly readable from a moving vehicle. The only consistent
signage on entry is the yellow signs with the detailed terms,
but it would be quite difficult to read these when driving past
as the text is incredible small.
On entry to the centre, there are the following attached
additional signs warning of parent and child permits, these have
been there since the previous changes were made. There’s nothing
even remotely similar to this mentioning the 14 hours.
Thanks again for taking the time to respond, I do appreciate it
and will let the driver know the provided information.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 54716--------------------------------------------------
Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
DIR By: b789
Date: January 23, 2025, 10:52 am
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OK, so there is one single sign alerting drivers of material
changes. You state that there are no other signs within the car
park that repeat or alert regular users of the car park what
these material changes are.
We are not interested in the Parent Child signs as they are not
relevant to this matter. Do you think that the operator has
complied with the requirements of the PPSCoP which states:
--- Quote ---
> NOTE: Examples of material changes can include introduction of
parking enforcement where none has previously applied,
introduction of time-limited free parking, or reductions in the
time limit within which free parking is available. Given the
need to avoid confusion and clutter at entrances the test is
whether the fact that a change has been made is clearly
signalled to drivers on entering the land and the nature of the
change is clearly displayed thereafter – it may also be
necessary to install repeater notices depending on the scale of
the premises.
--- End Quote ---
I am still unclear how the tariffs are displayed and explained.
It sounds confusing the way you've explained it with multiple
parking sessions allowed but with restrictions. It MUST be
posted somewhere. How do you pay for these parking sessions? If
it is online then show us. If it is at a payment machine, there
must be a sign showing the tariffs.
#Post#: 54734--------------------------------------------------
Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
DIR By: gme
Date: January 23, 2025, 11:26 am
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It’s free parking, the only restriction is the 14 hours per
week, it isn’t possible to pay for any additional time, go over
the 14 cumulative hours and you get the PCN automatically via
ANPR cameras.
The parent thing requires a permit which must be obtained from
the centre, which is then displayed, similar to a blue badge, if
you don’t get the permit or display it when using a parent bay,
you’ll be given the penalty charge too. This requires a parking
warden to issue as it isn’t ANPR controlled, the warden will
leave the PCN on the windscreen.
It is confusing, the attached is the Private Land terms and
conditions notice displayed around the car parks but the only
one warning you that this has been changed was the one on entry
photographed above. I will try to get a clearer photo detailing
the small print on the bottom of the terms and conditions sign.
I’m unsure whether the terms and conditions refers to the driver
or the vehicle, which is daft given some people share a car so
could easily clock up 14 hours over a week if multiple people
visit on separate occasions but use the same vehicle.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 54739--------------------------------------------------
Re: Minster Baywatch - overstayed - Meadowhall
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: January 23, 2025, 11:51 am
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The parties to a parking contract are the driver and the parking
operator. Whilst Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act
provides a mechanism to recover unpaid charges from the keeper,
that does not alter the parties between whom the contract was
formed.
In light of this, I'm not sure what evidence Minster Baywatch
could produce to show that the driver was the same on each
occasion, and that any driver has exceeded the 14 hours per week
limit.
The signage is silent as to whether the 14 hours applies to the
driver or the vehicle, which brings to mind the following from
the Consumer Rights Act
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/part/2:
[indent]69 Contract terms that may have different meanings
[indent][i] (1)If a term in a consumer contract, or a consumer
notice, could have different meanings, the meaning that is most
favourable to the consumer is to prevail.[/indent] [/indent][/i]
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