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#Post#: 54151--------------------------------------------------
Fined for overstay in Britannia managed car park
DIR By: Jag84
Date: January 20, 2025, 5:10 am
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Driver of the car overstayed in Soth Woodford Waitrose car park
by about 3-4 minutes and have received a fine
I was wondering is there legally any grace period allowed ?
The driver will take pics of the signage and will post them.
Also will check if signage at entrance of car park
#Post#: 54156--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fined for overstay in Britannia managed car park
DIR By: mickR
Date: January 20, 2025, 5:14 am
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READ THIS FIRST - **BEFORE POSTING YOUR CASE!**,
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/
post up the pcn
first port if call is the Waitrose Manager.
The driver was a genuine customer (provide proof) and shouldn't
be penalised for shopping there and to instruct the parking
company to cancel the pcn.
#Post#: 54168--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fined for overstay in Britannia managed car park
DIR By: b789
Date: January 20, 2025, 5:55 am
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You also need to get rid of the notion that this Parking Charge
Notice (PCN) is a "fine". A PCN is nothing more than a
speculative invoice for an alleged breach of contract by the
driver.
You also need to get it into your head that the "driver" is not
the recipient of the "invoice". It will be the Keeper that has
received the postal Notice to Keeper (NtK). Britannia have no
idea who the driver of the vehicle is unless the Keeper blabs it
to them, inadvertently or otherwise. As Britannia tend to issue
NtKs that are not PoFA compliant, that means that as long as the
driver remains unknown, they cannot transfer liability to the
Keeper.
The driver and the Keeper are two separate legal entities and
there is no legal obligation on the Keeper to identify the
driver to an unregulated private parking company. Don't tell 'em
you name Pike!
#Post#: 54196--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fined for overstay in Britannia managed car park
DIR By: Jag84
Date: January 20, 2025, 8:32 am
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Ok , i thought before the keeper was not obliged to disclose the
driver but a change in law meant if the keeper does not
disclose the driver the invoice is against the drivers name ?
#Post#: 54199--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fined for overstay in Britannia managed car park
DIR By: b789
Date: January 20, 2025, 8:41 am
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Uh??? Unless the NtK is fully compliant with all the
requirements of PoFA, only the driver can be liable. Britannia
have no die of the drivers identity. The driver is unknown to
them. The NtK has been sent to the Keeper. The Keeper is known
to them.
As long as the unknown drivers identity is not revealed. There
is no legal obligation on the known keeper (the recipient of the
Notice to Keeper (NtK)) to reveal the identity of the unknown
driver and no inference or assumptions can be made.
The NtK is not compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which
means that if the unknown driver is not identified, they cannot
transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the
known keeper.
#Post#: 54361--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fined for overstay in Britannia managed car park
DIR By: Jag84
Date: January 21, 2025, 11:29 am
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Apologies initially I said the parking was for three hours was
actually two hours
Link below has the PCN and photos of the signs,. Driver will
later also add photo of the terms and conditions sign
Is there any basis on which an appeal can be made ?
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/i0m8v6gaylmd9mjmxnafa/AGzwT2ufZgBKK0HMCS3rtIc?rlkey=u5tkhrcx5w2t1cmi9vdtdtbvv&st=4h4m3r4m&dl=0
#Post#: 54429--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fined for overstay in Britannia managed car park
DIR By: b789
Date: January 21, 2025, 6:40 pm
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Easy one to defeat... as long as the unknown drivers identity is
not revealed. There is no legal obligation on the known keeper
(the recipient of the Notice to Keeper (NtK)) to reveal the
identity of the unknown driver and no inference or assumptions
can be made.
The NtK is not compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which
means that if the unknown driver is not identified, they cannot
transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the
known keeper.
Use the following as your appeal. No need to embellish or remove
anything from it:
--- Quote ---
> I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking
charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I
will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your
client landowner.
>
> As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL
the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper
of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even
substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no
admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions
can be drawn. Britannia has relied on contract law allegations
of breach against the driver only.
>
> The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have
been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation
of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable.
Britannia have no hope at POPLA, so you are urged to save us
both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 54443--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fined for overstay in Britannia managed car park
DIR By: ixxy
Date: January 22, 2025, 1:23 am
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There is a minimum 10 minute grace period in the code of
practice so in this case the max parking is 2hrs 10mins, you
were in the car park 2hrs 12 mins so exceeded the grace period
by 2 min which is why the PCN was issued. At the time you parked
the private parking company only knew you had breached the terms
of the signage, they will not know whether you were a genuine
customer or whether there were any other extenuating
circumstances mitigating the breach.
To elaborate on b789s point the PCN was issued 16 days after the
event so is not compliant with the requirements of POFA so they
can't hold the keeper liable only the driver, and they don't
know who the driver is unless you tell them. There is no
obligation to tell them who the driver is so don't.
That's the easiest appeal route (being a genuine customer isn't
automatic grounds for an appeal being accepted, thats down to
how the land owner wants the rules enforcing).
#Post#: 54790--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fined for overstay in Britannia managed car park
DIR By: Jag84
Date: January 23, 2025, 2:37 pm
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Thank you
Have submitted the appeal hopefully that will be the end of it
#Post#: 57313--------------------------------------------------
Re: Fined for overstay in Britannia managed car park
DIR By: Jag84
Date: February 9, 2025, 1:50 pm
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My appeal result has come back
Is this a long winded response basically saying they are not
going to charge me ?
"Site: South Woodford - Waitrose
Issue date: 08/01/2025
Thank you for your appeal received on 22/01/2025 regarding the
above Parking Charge.
We have considered your appeal and comments you have made; in
conjunction with any evidence you have provided and the
photographs we have on record.
This Parking Charge is not POFA compliant, however, payment can
still be sought under the old
‘implied-contract-with-the-driver’ rules used prior to POFA.
Under Contract Law there is a probability that the Keeper was
the Driver if the Keeper does not nominate anyone else.
Britannia Parking have made no assumptions as to the identity of
the driver. We have written to you as the vehicle’s keeper to
inform you of any outstanding contraventions against your
vehicle. If you
inform us of the driver’s details, we will pursue them for the
Parking Charge. Please be aware that the identity of the driver
does not affect the validity of a Parking Charge.
In addition, should this Parking Charge reach court proceedings,
we will put in a request to the judge that the insurance
certificate for the vehicle to reviewed as evidence, to
determine who was
able to drive the vehicle at the time of the contravention.
It is not a requirement that we must notify you of your Parking
Charge within 14 days. This only applies if we refer to the
Keeper Liability provisions in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 when we
issue a Parking Charge. As we did not, we have 6 months in which
we may notify you of the Parking Charge.
The Parking Charge Notice was issued to your vehicle because you
over stayed the maximum time permitted for parking at this car
park. The store operates as a 120 minutes maximum stay car park.
Britannia Parking is an active member of the British Parking
Association (BPA) and we follow their Approved Operators Scheme,
Code of Practice at all times. We meet all signage requirements
under the BPA's Code of Practice regarding signage and notifying
the driver of the terms and
conditions.
British Parking Association Code of Practice - Consideration and
Grace Periods
Where a parking location is one where a limited period of
parking is permitted (Max stay), or where drivers contract to
park for a defined period and pay for that service in advance
(Pay & Display), this would be considered as a parking event and
a Grace Period of at least 10 minutes must be
added to the end of a parking event before a Parking Charge can
be issued.
Neither a consideration period or a grace period are periods of
free parking and there is no requirement for Britannia Parking
to offer an additional allowance on top of a consideration or
grace period.
We give motorist a 10 minute grace period at the end of parking
event to leave the car park before a Parking Charge is issued,
which is within the BPA guidelines.
After 120 minutes of parking, your 10 minute grace will
commence, if the driver has not left the car park by the time
the 10 minute grace period has been reached, a Parking Charge
will be issued for
breaching the terms and conditions of the car park.
Therefore, we consider the Parking Charge to be valid and
correctly issued.
Having considered the content of your letter and our internal
review, as this is your first Parking Charge appeal, we are
prepared to cancel the notice; with the understanding that you
will not continue to breach the terms and conditions; as you are
now aware of the maximum stay time
permitted for this car park.
Yours sincerely,
Appeals Department
Britannia Parking "
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