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#Post#: 54078--------------------------------------------------
Royal Greenwich PCN 34J - being in a bus lane (camera
enforcement) Blackwall Lane bus lane NB
DIR By: majikd
Date: January 19, 2025, 1:41 pm
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Royal Greenwich PCN 34J - Being in a Bus Lane (Camera
Enforcement) Blackwall Lane Bus Lane NB
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Outline of Case and Potential Grounds to Dispute
- Date of Alleged Offence: 04/01/2025
- Date of Notification: 10/01/2025
- 14-Day Deadline: 24/01/2025
Thank you in advance for any assistance. I am uncertain if I
have valid grounds to appeal, but I would greatly appreciate
your guidance.
The alleged offence occurred in a bus lane on a road I use
regularly, and I believed I was familiar with the hours of
operation. However, upon receiving the PCN, I discovered that
the operational hours had changed back in 2023. According to the
article linked in the supporting evidence section, the bus lane
hours were extended, but I had not noticed this change.
Potential Grounds for Dispute:
1. Local Road User Awareness:
Is it reasonable to expect a regular local road user to check
the signs every time they pass, especially on routes they
frequently use? I failed to notice the time change and question
how effectively this change was communicated to the public.
2. Signage Prominence:
The sign at the start of the bus lane does indicate the change
in hours, but I question whether it is sufficiently prominent.
The sign appears soon after a left turn and a pelican crossing,
where drivers' attention would naturally be on pedestrians and
other immediate hazards.
3.Driving Record:
I have never previously received a PCN, despite regularly
driving the same route using the bus lane since the operational
hours were extended. Is there any basis that only starting to
issue PCNs over a year later provides any grounds to dispute?
I appreciate any advice, especially on whether these grounds are
reasonable or if there are additional arguments I could present.
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Supporting Evidence and References:
PCN images and Council Correspondence:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/Bd0XpRh.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/Pixg3Kw.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/Ahd8OFk.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/HOhyHOJ.jpeg
Relevant News Article:
An article confirms the council extended the bus lane hours from
7am-7pm to 6am-10pm on 04/09/2023 following a TfL request. It
notes that the change was publicized via lamp post notices and
local press, but no objections were received.
Full Article Link
HTML https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/news/protesters-take-to-street-to-fight-against-bus-lane-blocking-110-year-old-social-club/
Excerpt:
Following a request by TfL, the council changed the bus lane
operation times from 7am to 7pm to 6am to 10pm to address issues
with traffic and significant bus delays in the area. The council
made the change after notifying people about the proposal,
including advertising on public notices on nearby lamp posts and
in local press. No objections were received.
Streetview Evidence:
Location of Alleged Offence
HTML https://www.instantstreetview.com/@51.487849,0.007606,0.2h,-11.09p,0.98z,VBCymGZvKL_KqpEp9-tIEA
HTML https://i.imgur.com/Y290gqa.jpeg
Start of the Bus Lane
HTML https://www.instantstreetview.com/@51.486067,0.007232,292.58h,12.25p,0.62z,KiV2uDC24QdylmAKlJylOw
HTML https://i.imgur.com/tu4eE05.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/90qI1T8.jpeg
#Post#: 54085--------------------------------------------------
Re: Royal Greenwich PCN 34J - being in a bus lane (camera
enforcement) Blackwall Lane bus lane NB
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: January 19, 2025, 2:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
You can never assume something is the same today as it was
yesterday.
Are you saying your route was via a left turn just before the
sign?
There may be something on the PCN/website wording or camera
authorisation.
#Post#: 54090--------------------------------------------------
Re: Royal Greenwich PCN 34J - being in a bus lane (camera
enforcement) Blackwall Lane bus lane NB
DIR By: majikd
Date: January 19, 2025, 3:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your response. Ive addressed your points below:
--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> You can never assume something is the same today as it was
yesterday.
>
--- End Quote ---
A truism for many aspects of life! To clarify, does this mean
its not a valid argument to dispute an offence like this? In
other words, would the council simply argue the point youve
made, disregarding whether its reasonable to expect a driver to
review every signpost on every drive, even if theyre familiar
with the route?
--- Quote ---
> Are you saying your route was via a left turn just before the
sign?
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, thats correct. To clarify, my route involved a left turn
immediately before the sign. This sign had an additional notice
beneath it indicating that the hours of operation had changed. I
believe the cameras recorded the alleged offence approximately
500m further along the bus lane. However, at that point, the
signs only display the hours of operation without the additional
notice about the change, which seems inconsistent.
--- Quote ---
> There may be something on the PCN/website wording or camera
authorisation.
>
--- End Quote ---
Apologies if Ive misunderstood, but Im not entirely sure what
you mean here. Id appreciate it if you could clarify or
elaborate further.
#Post#: 54101--------------------------------------------------
Re: Royal Greenwich PCN 34J - being in a bus lane (camera
enforcement) Blackwall Lane bus lane NB
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: January 19, 2025, 4:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
It's no defence to break the speed limit if the limit sign
changes so yes you do need to check parking and moving traffic
signs.
The video won't show it so what was your route.
[i]There may be something on the PCN/website wording or camera
authorisation.[/I]
Others may chip in here - some councils haven't had official
camera authorisation and some have mucked up website
representation grounds but London bus lanes have an enforcement
notice stage and you you're not at that.
#Post#: 54121--------------------------------------------------
Re: Royal Greenwich PCN 34J - being in a bus lane (camera
enforcement) Blackwall Lane bus lane NB
DIR By: majikd
Date: January 19, 2025, 8:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> It's no defence to break the speed limit if the limit sign
changes so yes you do need to check parking and moving traffic
signs.
>
> The video won't show it so what was your route.
>
> There may be something on the PCN/website wording or camera
authorisation.
>
> Others may chip in here - some councils haven't had official
camera authorisation and some have mucked up website
representation grounds but London bus lanes have an enforcement
notice stage and you you're not at that.
>
--- End Quote ---
thank you again. I will look into the camera authorisation point
to see if I can find out.
Please find the below image, which I hope is sufficient to
answer your question regarding my route. Please let me know if
you require further information
HTML https://i.imgur.com/fgQedXn.png
#Post#: 54383--------------------------------------------------
Re: Royal Greenwich PCN 34J - being in a bus lane (camera
enforcement) Blackwall Lane bus lane NB
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: January 21, 2025, 1:49 pm
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They have to prove the contravention and signage. Do they?
#Post#: 54428--------------------------------------------------
Re: Royal Greenwich PCN 34J - being in a bus lane (camera
enforcement) Blackwall Lane bus lane NB
DIR By: majikd
Date: January 21, 2025, 6:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hippocrates link ---
>
> They have to prove the contravention and signage. Do they?
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you for your response. No they do not prove the signage on
the letter or the evidence on their website. Is that grounds to
dispute it therefore? I had a search on the forum and found your
advice for a similar case so should I look to dispute it as
follows? Should I make any reference to the fact the times of
operation changed and proof of an additional sign to highlight
that point? Grateful for any other suggestions as maybe I don't
need the preamble. Thanking you in advance
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/hackney-bus-lane-hackney-road-no-signs/15/
I am disappointed in having received this PCN for a road I use
regularly and I am very familiar with as a local resident. I was
unaware that this bus lane operates at this time of day seeing
as its purpose is to aid thoroughfare of buses at peak hours
when the Blackwall tunnel is busy and as a local resident that
is certainly not the case at this time of day.
1. The video evidence does not show any signage, either warning
and/or bus lane signage passed.
2. I put you to strict proof that such signs were reflectorised.
3. I out you to strict proof that there is any warning signage
at all junctions before entering the said bus lane.
4. I put you to strict proof that the camera used at this
location has the relevant approval from the VCA.
In light of the above, and should you not be able to address
points 2-4, I request that the PCN be cancelled.
#Post#: 55062--------------------------------------------------
Re: Royal Greenwich PCN 34J - being in a bus lane (camera
enforcement) Blackwall Lane bus lane NB
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: January 25, 2025, 9:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes.
#Post#: 55124--------------------------------------------------
Re: Royal Greenwich PCN 34J - being in a bus lane (camera
enforcement) Blackwall Lane bus lane NB
DIR By: majikd
Date: January 25, 2025, 8:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Challenge to PCN - Request for Review and Evidence
Dear Greenwich Council Team,
I am writing to formally challenge the PCN issued for my alleged
use of the bus lane on Blackwall Lane on 4th January 2025. As a
local resident who regularly uses this road, I was surprised to
receive this notice. I was unaware that the bus lane operates at
this time of day, particularly as its primary purpose is to
assist bus traffic during peak congestion hours near the
Blackwall Tunnel. Based on my experience, this time of day does
not correspond to peak traffic conditions.
In support of my challenge, I respectfully raise the following
points:
1. The video evidence provided does not clearly show any
relevant signage indicating bus lane restrictions or hours of
operation that I allegedly passed.
2. I request strict proof that the signage at this location
complies with regulations, including that it is reflectorized
and visible under all relevant conditions.
3. I request strict proof that warning signage is present at all
junctions leading into the bus lane to adequately inform drivers
before entering the restricted area.
4. I request strict proof that the camera used at this location
has the necessary approval from the Vehicle Certification Agency
(VCA).
Given the above concerns, I respectfully request the PCN be
cancelled unless you are able to adequately address points 24.
Thank you for your attention to this matter. I look forward to
your response.
Yours sincerely,
#Post#: 55138--------------------------------------------------
Re: Royal Greenwich PCN 34J - being in a bus lane (camera
enforcement) Blackwall Lane bus lane NB
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: January 26, 2025, 4:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: majikd link ---
>
> Subject: Challenge to PCN - Request for Review and Evidence
>
> Dear Greenwich Council Team,
>
> I am writing to formally challenge the PCN issued for my
alleged use of the bus lane on Blackwall Lane on 4th January
2025. As a local resident who regularly uses this road, I was
surprised to receive this notice. I was unaware that the bus
lane operates at this time of day, particularly as its primary
purpose is to assist bus traffic during peak congestion hours
near the Blackwall Tunnel. Based on my experience, this time of
day does not correspond to peak traffic conditions.
>
> In support of my challenge, I respectfully raise the following
points:
>
> 1. The video evidence provided does not clearly show any
relevant signage indicating bus lane restrictions or hours of
operation that I allegedly passed.
> 2. I request strict proof that the signage at this location
complies with regulations, including that it is reflectorized
and visible under all relevant conditions.
> 3. I request strict proof that warning signage is present at
all junctions leading into the bus lane to adequately inform
drivers before entering the restricted area.
> 4. I request strict proof that the camera used at this
location has the necessary approval from the Vehicle
Certification Agency (VCA).
>
> In light of the above, please cancel the PCN.
>
> Thank you for your attention to this matter. I look forward to
your response.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
--- End Quote ---
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