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#Post#: 53991--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver - 2 FPN’s on same journey
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: January 18, 2025, 5:13 pm
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I’m afraid, from what you tell us, it seems very likely his
licence will be revoked,
Unless the court finds that there are “special reasons” not to
endorse his licence and impose points, they must impose three
points for each offence. The “special reasons” must be to do
with the circumstances of the offence itself, not his personal
circumstances.
The court is unlikely to do this as there is nothing you have
told us about either offence which might suggest this.
With the offences occurring in separate journeys in opposite
directions, there is no chance of the court considering them as
a single offence or of two offences committed “on the same
occasion” (when only one lot of points would be imposed).
It might be worth enquiring why no course was offered. He has no
right to a course but it might be worth a phone call. Apart from
that, the only sliver of hope I can see is the late NIP. The
police must serve the NIP within 14 date of the offence date.
Postal difficulties do not alter that requirement. The
difficulty is that the NIP is presumed delivered two working
days after posting unless the contrary can be proved. The burden
of that proof will rest with your son. This will mean he must
decline the fixed penalty offer and plead not guilty in court.
From what you say, without legal representation (for which he
will have to bear the cost) this may cause him some difficulty.
The revocation of his licence is not a judicial decision to be
taken by the court. It is an administrative function undertaken
by the DVLA when they learn of his six points. The court has no
control over it.
It is important to understand that revocation does not mean he
is disqualified from driving. If his licence is revoked, he can
immediately apply for a new provisional licence and can begin
driving (in accordance with Its conditions) as soon as he has
it, He will, of course, have to pass his test (both parts)
again.
#Post#: 54011--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver - 2 FPN’s on same journey
DIR By: Rlcjael
Date: January 19, 2025, 1:09 am
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Thank you for taking the time to respond and for your advice.
It is much appreciated.
I’m sorry that my write ups weren’t precise.
Kind regards,
Rachel
#Post#: 54070--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver - 2 FPN’s on same journey
DIR By: Irksome
Date: January 19, 2025, 12:55 pm
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Tell us more about the potential late NIP? How do you know the
date it was received? What is the date of the NIP?
#Post#: 54074--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver - 2 FPN’s on same journey
DIR By: Rlcjael
Date: January 19, 2025, 1:22 pm
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The NIPs were both dated the 11/12/24 but not received until
27/12/24.
It’s not uncommon for us to only get post delivered once or
twice a week and with it being Christmas, I presume this added
to the delay.
I know the date they were received because they were such a
shock bearing in mind the consequences.
As per previous advice though, I’m not going to be able to prove
it so guess it’s probably a lost cause.
#Post#: 54077--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver - 2 FPN’s on same journey
DIR By: Dave Green
Date: January 19, 2025, 1:39 pm
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Do you still have the envelopes that the NIP's came in? and if
so, are they postmarked with a date showing?
#Post#: 54083--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver - 2 FPN’s on same journey
DIR By: Rlcjael
Date: January 19, 2025, 2:40 pm
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Sadly not. I didn’t know anything about the 14 day rule at the
time and we actually apologised when returning the NIP’s, saying
that we’d only received them that day so were replying at the
earliest opportunity.
I posted them back on the same day as I was worried about them
already being 16 days old, at that point, and didn’t want them
to think we’d been dragging our feet.
I know I’m completely clueless but I’ve held my licence for over
30 years and have no points so it’s all very alien to me.
#Post#: 54088--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver - 2 FPN’s on same journey
DIR By: Rlcjael
Date: January 19, 2025, 2:57 pm
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Incidentally, I have spoken to the postman who said they were
overwhelmed before Christmas at their sorting office. I have
searched online and there was an article in The Daily Mail
saying Royal Mail was in chaos. This is dated 14/12/24 which
would be within the timescales of the NIP’s being sent.
#Post#: 54119--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver - 2 FPN’s on same journey
DIR By: Irksome
Date: January 19, 2025, 7:59 pm
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Very strange that a course wasn't offered either for one of the
offences ...
You can attempt to prove the late delivery, your statement (or
that of your Son as well as your statement) is evidence to the
late delivery, but probably not sufficient ... however if you
can get your Post(wo)man to testify as to what date(s) they
delivered post to you then you are starting to swing the burden
of proof your way?
#Post#: 54134--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver - 2 FPN’s on same journey
DIR By: Freecall
Date: January 20, 2025, 3:54 am
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I don't think that it is clear what point is trying to be made
here. That the NIP's were served out of time and therefore
invalid?
That is a difficult defence at the best of times. When these
things are challenged, courts are presented with comprehensive
evidence of the administrative systems used to handle these
documents. If you had a statement from the Manager of your local
delivery office categorically stating that no post was delivered
during say a two week period due to staff shortages then it
would be worth giving it a try but short of that or something
similar, you will be very much fighting an uphill battle
regarding NIP invalidity.
At the end of the day, your statement :
--- Quote from: Rlcjael link ---
>
>
> He received 2 NIPS followed by 2 FPN’s.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
...seems pretty ordinary and straightforward.
#Post#: 54153--------------------------------------------------
Re: New driver - 2 FPN’s on same journey
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: January 20, 2025, 5:11 am
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--- Quote from: Freecall link ---
>
> I don't think that it is clear what point is trying to be made
here. That the NIP's were served out of time and therefore
invalid?
--- End Quote ---
I think it’s pretty clear (to anyone who knows the law) that
that is a possibility.
--- Quote ---
> That is a difficult defence at the best of times. When these
things are challenged, courts are presented with comprehensive
evidence of the administrative systems used to handle these
documents. If you had a statement from the Manager of your local
delivery office categorically stating that no post was delivered
during say a two week period due to staff shortages then it
would be worth giving it a try but short of that or something
similar, you will be very much fighting an uphill battle
regarding NIP invalidity.
--- End Quote ---
I don’t think anyone can be so categoric as to what evidence is
required.
The defendant has to show that it was more likely than not that
the NIP(s) arrived late. How they do that is a matter for them
and depends on the evidence available. At the moment we have, it
seems, mum and son who can give evidence as to their arrival.
The court might believe them or it might not but it is difficult
to see why the court would decide that both have conspired to
commit perjury.
--- Quote from: Rlcjael link ---
> At the end of the day, your statement :
>
>
> [quote author=Rlcjael link=topic=4742.msg53967#msg53967
date=1737226966]
>
> He received 2 NIPS followed by 2 FPN’s.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
...seems pretty ordinary and straightforward.
[/quote]
Straightforward but irrelevant to the NIP issue.
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