DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 53923--------------------------------------------------
Reading Borough Council - (16) Parked in a permit space without
displaying a valid permit - Katesgrove Lane
DIR By: gt3
Date: January 18, 2025, 8:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi
I received a PCN last week for parking in a resident's only
space, the road has 2 hour parking spaces and I was unaware that
it changed midway along the set of spaces.
GSV:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/BntAzfpydWjAvG9m6
Pictures/PCN:
HTML https://imgur.com/a/EEEWTJz
I had submitted an informal challenge which was rejected, that's
the second letter at the end of the album.
My defence was that it wasn't obvious that the rules changed at
that point, less than a car's length away from my spot. The sign
closest to my car stating it was permit only had the blue P and
permit type painted over so quite frankly I just didn't notice
it, and I'm used to signs in these scenarios having arrows along
the bottom to clearly depict the difference in where they apply.
The fact that in the PCN evidence they attached a photo of a
different sign (pic 7) further away makes me think they knew
this one isn't up to scratch, but I'm not clued up enough on the
actual regulations to make a call on that.
The other point is that when I arrived (first picture in the
album) there was a car parked over the (very faint) markings
that showed the change in restrictions on the ground, making it
less obvious that the other rules didn't apply to the whole row
of spaces.
Do I have a leg to stand on here/is it worth making a formal
challenge? TIA.
#Post#: 53944--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Borough Council - (16) Parked in a permit space
without displaying a valid permit - Katesgrove Lane
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: January 18, 2025, 10:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Never seen that before - I'd say it needs a proper parking sign
at the divider for permit holders. That little flap looks
deficient and daft.
HTML https://i.ibb.co/2ZsC5MG/image.png
#Post#: 53957--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Borough Council - (16) Parked in a permit space
without displaying a valid permit - Katesgrove Lane
DIR By: gt3
Date: January 18, 2025, 11:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> Never seen that before - I'd say it needs a proper parking
sign at the divider for permit holders. That little flap looks
deficient and daft.
>
--- End Quote ---
I've been reading Schedule 4 and 5 of the Traffic Signs
Regulations and General Directions 2016 to try and see how the
signage stacks up, and I think I might be able to argue
something in the layout of that sign as well as the missing blue
P. Not completely sure of my interpretation and understanding of
it though so thought to get some other opinions first
#Post#: 53984--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Borough Council - (16) Parked in a permit space
without displaying a valid permit - Katesgrove Lane
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: January 18, 2025, 3:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The boundary between the two bays is incorrectly marked. It
should consist of double lines perpendicular to the kerb. This
is because in TSRGD a bay is defined in Schedule 7 Part 4 Item 6
(Diagram 1028.4). So two bays with seperate restrictions, must
have their own boundary, thus making a double perpendicular line
mandatory. Here, it is only a single line.
#Post#: 53992--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Borough Council - (16) Parked in a permit space
without displaying a valid permit - Katesgrove Lane
DIR By: gt3
Date: January 18, 2025, 5:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> The boundary between the two bays is incorrectly marked. It
should consist of double lines perpendicular to the kerb. This
is because in TSRGD a bay is defined in Schedule 7 Part 4 Item 6
(Diagram 1028.4). So two bays with seperate restrictions, must
have their own boundary, thus making a double perpendicular line
mandatory. Here, it is only a single line.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks, I didn't know that. Just to confirm a few things - is
TSRGD something that must be followed or simply guidance - i.e.
if the signage and markings are improper is that enough to
invalidate the PCN? And are my arguments regarding the signage
valid? I suppose they would say that there was another, but the
photos do show that it wasn't the closest to my car.
Would therefore plan to appeal with the following:
1. Boundary not marked, should be double line - TSRGD Schedule 7
Part 4 Item 6
2. Signage inadequate, missing symbol - TSRGD Schedule 4 Part 2
Paragraph 10 Sub-Paragraph 1; TSRGD Schedule 4 Part 4 Item 2
I was going to draft a representation but just realised that I
can't submit a rep until a NtO turns up - I assume it's
intentional that I can't do it during the reduced penalty
period, forcing me to take a gamble.
In which case - while I understand no one has a crystal ball -
does it seem like I have a good chance at a successful appeal?
#Post#: 53999--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Borough Council - (16) Parked in a permit space
without displaying a valid permit - Katesgrove Lane
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: January 18, 2025, 6:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> I was going to draft a representation but just realised that I
can't submit a rep until a NtO turns up - I assume it's
intentional that I can't do it during the reduced penalty
period, forcing me to take a gamble.
--- End Quote ---
No, you can submit an informal challenge at any time within the
28 days of the PCN payment period, indeed if you submit reps
within the 14 day discount period, most councils re-offer the
discount when rejecting those reps. These must be considered by
the council. However, at Notice to Owner stage, things firm up,
because under the law the owner is responsible for payment or
representations and also for appealing to the adjudicators. Of
course you don't have to do anything at all, and can just wait
for the NtO, assuming you are the owner.
#Post#: 54005--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Borough Council - (16) Parked in a permit space
without displaying a valid permit - Katesgrove Lane
DIR By: gt3
Date: January 18, 2025, 6:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> No, you can submit an informal challenge at any time within
the 28 days of the PCN payment period, indeed if you submit reps
within the 14 day discount period, most councils re-offer the
discount when rejecting those reps. These must be considered by
the council. However, at Notice to Owner stage, things firm up,
because under the law the owner is responsible for payment or
representations and also for appealing to the adjudicators. Of
course you don't have to do anything at all, and can just wait
for the NtO, assuming you are the owner.
>
--- End Quote ---
I submitted an informal challenge the day after which was
rejected, received the letter yesterday. As far as I can see
there is no option to make a rep/formal challenge without
waiting for the NtO?. They haven't explicitly said it but on a
past post here I saw they did re-offer the discount after the
rep so there may be hope. To confirm, I am the owner of the car.
#Post#: 54008--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Borough Council - (16) Parked in a permit space
without displaying a valid permit - Katesgrove Lane
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: January 18, 2025, 7:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Ah, right. So the next stage if you don't take up their offer of
the discount is to wait for the NtO and submit formal reps.
There is no legal obligation on them to re-offer the discount
when rejecting formal reps, but a lot do, because if they don't,
it's then a total no-brainer for the appellant to take them to
adjudication as the penalty remains the same, and there are no
additional costs.
#Post#: 61465--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Borough Council - (16) Parked in a permit space
without displaying a valid permit - Katesgrove Lane
DIR By: gt3
Date: March 9, 2025, 11:09 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The NtO has arrived and I plan to submitting a rep. This is what
I've drafted up so far, could I please have some second opinions
if it's ok or any changes I should make?
Dear Reading Borough Council,
The contravention did not occur as the signs and lines were
wrong, and not in accordance with the Traffic Signs Regulations
and General Directions (TSRGD) 2016.
Firstly, the boundary between the two bays with differing
restrictions is incorrectly marked: the bays must have their own
boundary and therefore a double perpendicular line from the kerb
is required to define two separate bays as specified in TSRGD
Schedule 7 Part 4 Item 6. In the pictures there is only a single
faint perpendicular line on the boundary, and at the time of
arrival a car was parked over it.
Furthermore the signage is inadequate in designating the
separate parking restrictions. As defined in TSRGD Schedule 4
Part 2 Paragraph 10 Sub-Paragraph 1 in reference to Schedule 4
Part 4 Item 2, a blue ‘P’ symbol must be present on the sign for
the ‘Permit holders only’ parking restriction, which was not the
case at the boundary of the restrictions. At less than a car
length away from my car, this was the closest signage to my
parking location.
I therefore request the cancellation of the PCN.
Regards,
#Post#: 61968--------------------------------------------------
Re: Reading Borough Council - (16) Parked in a permit space
without displaying a valid permit - Katesgrove Lane
DIR By: gt3
Date: March 11, 2025, 2:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
bump - any advice please?
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 2
DIR Next Page