DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 53364--------------------------------------------------
LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
DIR By: Mike_D
Date: January 14, 2025, 3:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi All,
I wonder if I can appeal/challenge a PCN for Havering.
I have to pay by the 27th of Junuary in order to be within the
reduced charge period.
Today I parked my car at Marketplace in Romford, as on these
pics:
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/cunhe20ax8dtmk88hd38i/20250114_190105.jpg?rlkey=r13esig8f29t5zyu59g9es66t&st=q0smlon7&dl=0
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/8774797s2gdj89x01mhqa/20250114_190322.jpg?rlkey=if1xe43taq2jsyj281hdycwa2&st=rk6rkepi&dl=0
At the time I parked my car, other cars were parked behind mine
in a similar manner, but most of them were already gone when I
was taking the pics.
As you can see, there are no clear lines that would mark a clear
distinction between the parking space and the "footpath" there,
especially when it's dark and wet like today (my phone camera
brightens it a lot).
A whole empty square and I get a notice for parking one wheel 10
cm over a different kind of cobblestone?
The exact location is:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/R9iv2JBwcF9Jai2r5
My car was parked exactly where that blue VW is visible on the
StreetView pic.
The scan of the PCN is here:
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/q33qia9zk9i7r1xgcvvce/PCN.jpg?rlkey=wbddxa884p5v9c2l38dg2yfex&st=vkkej2ie&dl=0
Do you think it is reasonable to appeal, considering Havering's
policy of loosing the 14-day discount when you challenge the
PCN?
@cp8759
#Post#: 53369--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: January 14, 2025, 4:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Isn't Market Place an off-street car park? In which case a code
62 is a nonsense.
As for the alleged contravention it looks a trivial wheel a bit
on the flat tarmac.
#Post#: 53372--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
DIR By: Mike_D
Date: January 14, 2025, 4:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I suppose it is an off-street parking...
I found a StreetView pic of the conditions of use:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/imR62ESdVEqxUSVVA
It states that a PCN may be issued when "parked beyond the bay
markings".
Bay markings - white/yellow lines - are clearly visible on the
other side of the square, but the part where I parked has none -
just these cobblestone patterns, which are hardly visible in
dark and wet conditions... Can they even be recognized as bay
markings?
#Post#: 53375--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: January 14, 2025, 4:58 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
As we all know, Havering is a venal and rapacious council, but
this PCN really does take the biscuit ! It would be well worth
getting this into the local press to shame them.
Whilst they say they are not re-offering the discount if you
submit representations, the discount period remains valid, so if
you submit reps and have not had a reply before it expires you
are entitled to pay the discounted amount. A case on this very
subject was won at Nottingham when am appellant tried to pay the
discount within the allowed period, having already appealed. The
adjudicator was quite clear that the discount period was a
lawful period for paying a reduced sum regardless of whether
representations had previously been submitted. As I recall (it
was some years ago !), the adjudicator also commented that it
was a procedural impropriety to say that submitting reps
forfeited the discount.
So submit reps on the basis of triviality of contravention. If
they respond within the discount period, you are entitled to the
discount. If they refuse it, take them to London Tribunals where
you will win, and in all likelihood would be able to claim
costs. If they have not responded, pay the discount before the
period expires. Again, if they refuse it, they are behaving
unlawfully.
Here are the relevant regulations: -
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2/made
#Post#: 53377--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: January 14, 2025, 5:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
So this looks like an off-street car park to me and they've
given you an on-street contravention.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/1rXlttE.png
#Post#: 53438--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
DIR By: Mike_D
Date: January 15, 2025, 6:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Guys, thanks for your support.
I have drafted my rationale for challenging the PCN, but as I am
totally new to this (and English is not my first language), I
would appreciate if you could add something and/or re-word it in
any way necessary. Are there any legal key phrases that would be
useful here?
Dear Sir/Madam,
I have received a PCN for an alleged contravention of parking
“with one or more wheels on a footpath”, code 62.
I parked my car on the Market Place Car Park at 18:20 on
14/01/2025 on western part of Market Place, adjacent to North
Street.
According to the Conditions of Use of the car park, a vehicle
should not be parked “beyond the bay markings”. However, this
area of the square has no clearly marked parking spaces that a
vehicle should be parked at. Such bay markings are clearly
visible on the other part of the square, where white and yellow
lines leave no doubt about it, but the area near North Street
has no such lines. There are just some decorative patterns of
cobblestone and stone slabs, which are hardly visible after dark
and in wet conditions. I have parked there for the first time
ever and it didn’t even cross my mind that these might be
considered as any “bay markings”.I parked my car near several
other cars parking in a similar manner, not posing any danger or
being an obstacle for pedestrians or other vehicles.
My alleged contravention is probably having one wheel parked on
10 cm of just another type of cobblestone, which can hardly be
considered as a separate footpath at all (the actual footpath,
where people do walk is alongside the shops and North Street,
very far away from any parked cars).
Please find the attached pictures of the position of my car.
Given the above triviality of the “contravention”, I would like
to file for the cancellation of the PCN.
Best regards,
Besides the triviality, should I challenge code 62 as well?
I don't know the actual status of that car park - it is pretty
ambiguous.
Certainly, there is no curb you could park right by, but on the
other hand, you can't exactly say that it is "constructed away
from the public roads or streets so that the parking does not
affect the pedestrians and flow of traffic directly" - it is
marked as a pedestrian and cycle zone in certain hours on
certain days:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/VQRawHVTnrzN2nrH6
#Post#: 53443--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: January 15, 2025, 7:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I would send this. But wait for others.
-----------
The alleged on-street contravention of footway parking cannot
have occurred as my car was parked in Market Place, one of your
off-street car parks.
As the PCN was issued in error I look forward to your early
confirmation of cancellation.
#Post#: 53484--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
DIR By: Mike_D
Date: January 15, 2025, 10:06 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks!
Should I add these two sentences somewhere to that long scribble
of mine or just send these two alone?
#Post#: 53495--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: January 15, 2025, 11:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
This is a basic point that the contravention cannot be given
where you parked so anything else is redundant
But I may be wrong so wait for others to look. There's no rush.
Here's a recent amendmnet to the order which clearly shows it's
an off-street car park in my view.
HTML https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4681461
#Post#: 53513--------------------------------------------------
Re: LB Havering, code 62, one wheel over a "footpath"
DIR By: mickR
Date: January 15, 2025, 1:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
indeed.
they call it a "car park" is it not impossible for a "car park"
to be on street?
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 6
DIR Next Page