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#Post#: 53235--------------------------------------------------
Incorrect arrival time on Penalty notice
DIR By: Wildon
Date: January 14, 2025, 12:23 am
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I have received a penalty notice from Saba Parking which said I
arrived in the car park at 7.45am and overstayed the 20 minute
time limit. I appealed and asked for photographic evidence that
I arrived at this time and I was sent a photo of my car at
8.22am. I asked again for evidence of arrival time and the
appeal got sent to the railway compamy who's land it was. I
sent my appeal through to them as I know I didn't arrive at
7.45am, but their response was "We are sure our operator
followed the correct procedure so the penalty still stands"
Please can anyone help as they have now closed my appeal and
said I have to pay it even though I wasn't there at the tie on
the ticket and there is no evidence that I was.
#Post#: 53237--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect arrival time on Penalty notice
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: January 14, 2025, 3:00 am
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Moved to Private Parking.
Please follow the guidance here
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/
#Post#: 53271--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect arrival time on Penalty notice
DIR By: b789
Date: January 14, 2025, 6:17 am
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Please show us this "Penalty Notice" issued by SABA. You are
asking for advice without providing enough evidence for us to
help you.
I know for a fact that a SABA issued Penalty Notice (PN) is
nothing of the sort. It is a fake PN. It is in fact an "offered
contract" which is not legally binding on anyone. The contract
offers the recipient the chance to "bribe" SABA to the tune of
£100 (or whatever amount is in the notice) for them not to
initiate a private criminal prosecution in the magistrates
court.
However, you have already been duped as have hundreds of
thousands of other low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree into
engaging with them in this extortion. You mention that
"[i]...the appeal got sent to the railway compamy whose land it
was.[/I]". Please elaborate on that.
SABA themselves have never ever initiated a private criminal
prosecution in the magistrate's court themselves. They don't
have an ounce of altruism in their being because any prosecution
that is successful means that the penalty paid goes to the
public purse, not the greedy ex-clampers one bank account.
So, if you'd like advice on how to fight this scam, please
answer the questions above and show us the PN you received, what
you have already said in your appeals and the responses you
received.
#Post#: 53302--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect arrival time on Penalty notice
DIR By: Wildon
Date: January 14, 2025, 9:26 am
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Thank you for your reply, I have attached correspondance and
initial penalty notice for you. Please let me know if there is
anything else needed. Thank you for your help.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 53311--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect arrival time on Penalty notice
DIR By: Snudge88
Date: January 14, 2025, 11:06 am
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You've left all of your personal information visible in the
various attachments - you may wish to redact these.
#Post#: 53337--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect arrival time on Penalty notice
DIR By: Wildon
Date: January 14, 2025, 1:26 pm
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Oh my! uploaded the wrong ones, Thank you for letting me know.
#Post#: 53403--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect arrival time on Penalty notice
DIR By: b789
Date: January 14, 2025, 10:10 pm
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Please show us the back of the Notice to Driver (NtD) that was
affixed to the vehicle.
I was discussing this matter with a district judge last night
and he is as outraged by the audacity of these fake Penalty
Notices. Saba are attempting to conflate civil law and statutory
law.
The notice is nothing more than an offer to the recipient which
is not enforceable. Real Penalty Notices cannot be dealt with by
the civil courts, only as criminal matters in the magistrates
court.
Civil matters only require the burden of proof to be on the
“balance of probabilities”. Criminal matters require the burden
of proof to be “beyond all reasonable doubt”. Even if this were
a real PN (it definitely isn’t), the prosecution would have to
prove that the crime was committed by the defendant.
Their reliance on bylaw 14.4 is impossible to prove. Never mind
the fact that they have not stated which subsection of bylaw 14
has allegedly been breached, they state that they can hold the
“owner” of the vehicle liable for the crime. There is no
register of “owners”. Being the Registered Keeper (RK) is not
proof of ownership and if you look at your V5C, it states so
very clearly on the front of it that it is not proof of
ownership.
So, SABA cannot try and sue you for the alleged debt as a civil
matter because it is not a civil matter and they are pretending
that they have a right to bring a private criminal prosecution
in the magistrates court as a matter of statutory law. Were they
to do that, the burden of proof goes through the roof and even
if they were successful, not a penny of any penalty or fine
would go to them. It all goes to the public purse.
I would bet that if Saba were forced to evidence their contract
with the Train Operating Company (TOC), they have no right to
issue “Penalty Notices” but are expected to issue Parking Charge
Notices (PCNs) under civil contract law. However, they choose
not to because they know they cannot rely on PoFA to hold the
Keeper liable as the location is not relevant land.
Please show us the back of the Penalty Notice you received as I
need it as further evidence of this unlawful extortion racket.
Continue to ignore everything that is sent to you except a
Letter of Claim (LoC) or a summons from the magistrates court.
They have 6 months from the date of the alleged offence to
initiate legal action. They won’t.
They are simply hoping you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible
tree that will pay up out of ignorance and fear. You are only
one of hundreds of thousands of victims of this scam/extortion
racket (call it what you will). Unfortunately, unless they’ve
been here or over on MSE, they have no idea and end up paying
needlessly into the scam. You have already fallen victim by
having appealed, needlessly and uselessly.
#Post#: 53428--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect arrival time on Penalty notice
DIR By: Wildon
Date: January 15, 2025, 4:57 am
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Thank you so much for your kind reply. I have attached the back
of the PN for you.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 53442--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect arrival time on Penalty notice
DIR By: b789
Date: January 15, 2025, 6:38 am
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My advice is to send the following letter to SABA and see what
their response is. Send the letter as a PDF attachment in an
email to customersupport.uk@sabagroup.com and also CC in
yourself.
--- Quote ---
> SABA Customer Support Centre
> PO Box 2466
> Watford
> Hertfordshire
> WD18 1XH
>
> By email to: customersupport.uk@sabagroup.com
>
> Subject: Formal Challenge Regarding the Legitimacy of Penalty
Notice [Reference Number: WMT42420241121080936]
>
> Dear Sir/Madam,
>
> I am writing to formally challenge the legitimacy and
enforceability of the above-referenced Penalty Notice (PN)
issued by SABA Parking UK on behalf of West Midlands Trains.
Based on my understanding of the Railway Byelaws 2005, the 2018
Department for Transport (DfT) response to POPLA, and the
decriminalisation of parking offences under the Road Traffic Act
1991, it is clear that your PN is not a lawful Penalty Notice. I
contend that this notice is a deliberate misrepresentation of
your authority under the byelaws and amounts to an attempt to
extort money from motorists into your own company bank account.
>
> 1. Misrepresentation of Legal Authority
>
> The PN issued to me purports to be a statutory penalty under
the Railway Byelaws 2005, specifically byelaw 14. However, I am
fully aware that parking offences were decriminalised under the
Road Traffic Act 1991, meaning that minor parking breaches
should no longer be treated as criminal offences. Instead, they
should be dealt with through civil contract law mechanisms, such
as a Parking Charge Notice (PCN), rather than a Penalty Notice
(PN) implying statutory authority and criminal liability.
>
> The 2018 DfT response to POPLA further supports this
interpretation. The query from POPLA was about their ability to
provide an independent appeals service for penalty notices
issued at railway station car parks. It is evident that POPLA,
as a non-statutory body, cannot adjudicate on criminal matters
such as penalty notices issued under the Railway Byelaws. POPLA
could, however, adjudicate if the matter were treated as a civil
contractual issue, such as a PCN. This distinction highlights
that penalty notices issued under the byelaws are inherently
criminal in nature and must be dealt with through the
appropriate statutory processes.
>
> Your attempt to issue a PN under the guise of enforcing a
statutory penalty is a fundamental misapplication of the
byelaws. If the alleged contravention is truly a minor parking
issue, as stated, it should be managed through civil contract
law, not through threats of criminal prosecution.
>
> 2. Unlawful Retention of Penalty Payments
>
> Statutory penalties issued under byelaw 14 are intended to be
paid into the public purse, not retained by private companies.
The payment instructions provided on your PN direct funds to
SABA’s bank account, raising serious concerns about the
legitimacy of your enforcement practices. There is no lawful
basis for SABA to retain funds collected from alleged breaches
of railway byelaws. If this were a genuine Penalty Notice under
statutory authority, any payments collected would need to be
remitted to the Train Operating Company or the public purse.
>
> Your current practice of directing payments to your own bank
account is indicative of a private revenue collection scheme
masquerading as statutory enforcement. This misrepresentation is
misleading to motorists and constitutes a breach of consumer
protection laws.
>
> 3. Procedural Flaws in the Use of "Appeals Service"
>
> I note that my appeal to your so-called "Appeals Service" was
rejected. This further highlights the flawed and unlawful nature
of your process. The Appeals Service, like POPLA, is not a
statutory body. It is a third-party, private entity funded by
SABA, creating a clear conflict of interest and undermining any
claim of impartiality.
>
> If SABA were acting in accordance with the Railway Byelaws,
the appropriate recourse would be to refer the matter to the
magistrates' court for prosecution. However, as previously
stated, minor parking offences should not be subject to criminal
prosecution. The use of a privately funded appeals service
demonstrates that SABA has no intention of following either the
statutory process or the appropriate civil process.
>
> 4. Understanding of the Legal Process and the DfT’s Position
>
> I am fully aware that if SABA wishes to pursue this matter as
a genuine penalty under the Railway Byelaws, the correct
procedure is to lay information before a magistrates' court for
a private criminal prosecution. If the information is deemed
valid, a summons would be issued for me to attend court. I also
understand that the burden of proof in the magistrates' court is
much higher than in a civil court. The prosecution must prove
the alleged offence beyond a reasonable doubt, which is a
significantly higher standard than the balance of probabilities
used in civil cases.
>
> However, it is clear from the DfT’s 2018 response that parking
offences under byelaw 14(4)(i) are not intended to be dealt with
through byelaw 24(1) criminal prosecutions. Instead, these minor
infractions should be handled through civil contract law
mechanisms, such as issuing a PCN, rather than a PN. Your
failure to follow the appropriate civil enforcement process
suggests a deliberate attempt to mislead motorists into
believing they are liable for a criminal penalty.
>
> 5. Abuse of Process and Potential Extortion
>
> Given the above, I believe that your actions amount to an
abuse of process and potentially constitute an attempt to extort
money from motorists under the guise of statutory enforcement.
Your PN is not a genuine Penalty Notice under the Railway
Byelaws, and your procedures indicate a deliberate effort to
mislead motorists into making payments that are not legally
owed.
>
> Furthermore, the threat of additional costs and enforcement
action if payment is not made reinforces the impression that
SABA is attempting to profit from this process without following
the correct legal channels. These tactics amount to unfair
commercial practices under the Consumer Protection from Unfair
Trading Regulations 2008.
>
> 6. Request for Clarification and Next Steps
>
> I hereby request the following clarifications from SABA:
>
> [indent]• Confirmation of the legal authority under which SABA
collects payments directly into its own bank account for alleged
breaches of railway byelaws.
>
> • An explanation as to why the alleged breach has not been
referred to the magistrates' court for prosecution, as required
under the Railway Byelaws, if you believe it constitutes a
criminal offence.
>
> • Details of any contractual arrangements between SABA and
West Midlands Trains regarding the right to issue Penalty
Notices and collection and retention of penalty payments.
>
> • Clarification of the role and funding of the Appeals
Service, and an explanation of why this body is used instead of
a court process or an independent, statutory appeals body.
>
> 7. Conclusion
>
> In light of the issues outlined above, I do not recognise this
Penalty Notice as valid or enforceable. I will not be making any
payment to SABA. Should SABA wish to pursue this matter further,
it must be done through the appropriate legal channels by
following either the correct statutory prosecution process or,
more appropriately, civil contract law procedures. If the latter
route is pursued, the correct mechanism would be to issue a
Parking Charge Notice (PCN) under civil law, rather than a
Penalty Notice.
>
> If SABA continues to pursue this matter without following the
proper legal process, I will consider filing formal complaints
with the British Parking Association, the DVLA, the Train
Operating Company, the Office of Rail and Road, and Trading
Standards. I will also consider reporting SABA’s practices to
the relevant consumer protection authorities for investigation
into potential breaches of the Consumer Protection from Unfair
Trading Regulations 2008.
>
> I look forward to your prompt response to this challenge.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> [Your Name]
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 53483--------------------------------------------------
Re: Incorrect arrival time on Penalty notice
DIR By: Wildon
Date: January 15, 2025, 10:04 am
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Thank you so much for the letter you have drafted. I will send
this through and see what happens. You have helped me
understand the unlawful practices of these companies.
I will keep you updated with any response I receive.
Many thanks once again.
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