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#Post#: 52953--------------------------------------------------
Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
DIR By: Albamc
Date: January 11, 2025, 8:35 am
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Hello,
I received a fine from my local leisure centre, which has
changed its parking system since I last used it. I received a
PCN from 'Civil Enforcement' which sounds very official... for
£100, £60 within 14 days. I appealed. Here is the text of my
appeal:
"I took my two children to the soft play at Hartham Leisure
Centre on the 14th Dec. Previously, there has been no parking
registration system in operation in the car park. I am unsure
when one was introduced. Not only was I not aware there was a
new system, the signage indicating there was one was clearly not
visible (enough) to a busy parent trying to get his children
into a Leisure Centre. I attach a bank statement showing that I
was using the Leisure Centre that day (the date is the 16th as
the 14th was a Saturday, so the transaction did not go through
til the Monday.)
You will also see from the statement I went to Hartham yesterday
(3/01/24.) This time I did notice much bigger signs for the
parking and a request to register your vehicle that I am almost
certain was not there on the 14th, though I may be wrong. When I
enquired behind the desk about the new system, I was told I had
to go past the security gate to register my details as that's
where the machine is. As I am not a member, the machine was
inaccessible without a member of staff letting me through. This
seems a very poor system if you are expecting non-members to
register - especially those using a soft play for their kids
which means by definition they have other things on their minds!
Whilst I fully accept I did not register on the 14th, I hope
that I can appeal this parking ticket as a) I genuinely had no
idea there was a new system in operation, b) my family were
clearly customers of the leisure centre at the time as my bank
statement proves, c) the signage was not obvious enough to
indicate there was a new system in operation and d) the machine
on which to register your car is out of sight of the entrance
behind a closed security door which is not open to the public.
I will of course register my car on every visit from now on, but
on this occasion I hope I can be excused the PCN for the reasons
stated above."
____________
I received the following reply today:
We refer to your recent correspondence.
We have carefully reviewed your appeal and/or evidence provided
taking into consideration all the
points you have raised in relation to this Parking Charge
Notice.
On this occasion, your appeal has been unsuccessful for the
following reason:
We have no record of the above vehicle being registered to be
exempt from the parking restrictions in
place on the day in question.
It is the responsibility of the driver to ensure they adhere to
the parking terms.
There are many clear and visible signs displayed on the site
advising drivers of the regulations in force
and we maintain a continuous log confirming that the signage
remains in place.
It is therefore our position that the Parking Charge was validly
issued because of the above detailed
breach of the terms and conditions set out on signs in the car
park.You have now reached the end of
our internal appeals procedure.
You now have two choices:
1. Settle the debt at a reduced rate of £20.
2. If you are not satisfied with our decision, you may appeal to
the Independent Appeals Service
(POPLA) via www.popla.co.uk
---------------
My question is very simple - I'd probably rather pay the £20
than go through all the hassle, but my feeling is if they've
already reduced it to £20, they must feel they're on shaky
ground. I refer particularly to the fact I did not see the
signage (so it can't have been that clear) and very much to the
fact the machine to register on is behind a security door in the
building non-members do not have direct access to.
It seems especially irritating that the parking is free, so it
would not have cost me anything to park even if I had realised I
needed to register. Obviously I didn't, but I was hoping
understandable human error, poor signage and absolutley no
intention to avoid paying for parking might make a full appeal
worthwhile.
If anyone could help suggest whether they think I have grounds
for a successful appeal to POPLA I would be most grateful.
Alistair
#Post#: 52991--------------------------------------------------
Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
DIR By: mickR
Date: January 11, 2025, 2:30 pm
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£20 ???
#Post#: 53004--------------------------------------------------
Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
DIR By: Albamc
Date: January 11, 2025, 5:50 pm
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As Tommy Cooper once said, it's not the principle Mick. It's the
money.
#Post#: 53029--------------------------------------------------
Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
DIR By: b789
Date: January 12, 2025, 4:52 am
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Oh dear... I wish you'd come here before you submitted that
terrible appeal. You are not dealing with some entity that has a
fuzzy warm customer service ethos. You are dealing with
ex-clamper scum who care only how much they can scam from you.
Here's one way to make a bit of money... I will give you £100
for every occurrence of the word "fine" you can show me in all
the correspondence you have received. Of course, you won't find
that word anywhere because you never received a "fine" of any
sort.
If you don't mind paying some unregulated private parking
company £20 because they have sent you a speculative invoice
because the driver allegedly breached a contractual term on a
sign, then that's up to you/ Do you always pay invoices from
private companies, irrespective of whether you actually own the
sum or not?
You can try POPLA. However, they will not take mitigation into
account. You will need to rely on CEL's breaches of contract law
and the IPC/BPA Private Parking Single Code of Practice
(PPSCoP).
For example, you say that they recently changed the parking
system. Do you know whether that change occurred within the last
4 months? If so, how was that change communicated to drivers?
Section 3.4 of the PPSCoP states:
--- Quote ---
> 3.4. Material changes – notices
>
> Where there is any material change to any pre-existing terms
and conditions that would not be immediately apparent to a
driver entering controlled land that is or has been open for
public parking, the parking operator must place additional
(temporary) notices at the site entrance for a period of not
less than 4 months from the date of the change making it clear
that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular
visitors who might be familiar with the old terms do not
inadvertently incur parking charges.
>
> NOTE: Examples of material changes can include introduction of
parking enforcement where none has previously applied,
introduction of time-limited free parking, or reductions in the
time limit within which free parking is available. Given the
need to avoid confusion and clutter at entrances the test is
whether the fact that a change has been made is clearly
signalled to drivers on entering the land and the nature of the
change is clearly displayed thereafter – it may also be
necessary to install repeater notices depending on the scale of
the premises.
--- End Quote ---
So... was this change made within the last 4 months and if so,
have CEL complied with the PPSCoP? That is one argument you can
make that they will have to respond to. If they haven't then the
PCN was incorrectly issued and POPLA would have to accept your
appeal.
I suggest that you decide whether you want to simply pay the
scammers £20 and be done with it which makes you art of the
problem by funding the scam. Just what scammers hope for. Or...
you can fight an unfair PCN and stand up for your rights.
We are here to assist you and will advise accordingly. I won't
put together a POPLA appeal for you until I know I'm not wasting
my time and effort.
#Post#: 53061--------------------------------------------------
Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
DIR By: Albamc
Date: January 12, 2025, 9:07 am
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Thank you for your very detailed reply, and apologies my appeal
was not up to scratch. I thought I had a reasonable case,
especially as I had successfully appealed a similar ticket when
the neighbouring supermarket updated its parking regulations. I
was hoping proof of being a customer would be enough, but as you
say, we are not dealing with reasonable people.
I'm also quite irritated by the fact they call themselves 'Civil
Enforcement' to add a veneer of officialdom and respectability.
The fact they immediately dropped their pants to £20 makes me
think a) I may have a case and b) don't let the bastards grind
you down.
The Leisure Centre re-opened in Sept '23. I'm pretty sure the
parking system wasn't immediately operational - I have asked a
couple of friends and left an enquiry on a local Facebook forum.
However, I'm pretty sure it's been in place longer than four
months.
I am planning to head down there tomorrow to check signage and
speak to the reception staff who are at least usually reasonably
helpful. I will report back with my findings and then perhaps we
can see if you think I have a case for appeal. All help very
gratefully received and I do hope not a waste of your time.
Kind regards
Al
#Post#: 53090--------------------------------------------------
Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
DIR By: roythebus
Date: January 12, 2025, 3:45 pm
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Also in any future cases never, ever name the driver or admit to
being the driver. It is usually the business of The Driver to
sort out the parking; if the parking company don't know who The
Driver is, they've got nobody to chase except the registered
keeper who may or may not be The Driver.
#Post#: 53100--------------------------------------------------
Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
DIR By: Albamc
Date: January 12, 2025, 5:42 pm
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Thank you. I mean, they do have a photo of the car front on, but
it's pretty hard to make me out. My wife immediately knew it was
me, but perhaps they wouldn't. I will know for next time
#Post#: 53107--------------------------------------------------
Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
DIR By: b789
Date: January 12, 2025, 7:40 pm
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Go take a photo, hi res, of a random person in the street and
then try and identify that person. How do you think you would do
that?
The parking operator has no idea who the person in the photo is.
There is no unicorn database where anyone can simply enter a
photo of someone and out will spit their details. Unregulated
private parking companies cannot use an image and do some kind
of forensic examination. They are not the police and no crime
has been committed.
Stop imagining that just because there is a photo of the driver,
they can somehow identify that person. They can’t.
They have a photo of the driver… so what? They still don’t know
who that is. It could be you or it could be your brother or your
neighbour or it could be me. They have no idea and they are not
allowed to assume nor infer that the Keeper must be the driver.
There’s plenty of persuasive appeals case law that says so.
#Post#: 53112--------------------------------------------------
Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
DIR By: Albamc
Date: January 13, 2025, 1:23 am
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Well, that ship has clearly sailed as I have admitted to being
the driver. I am dropping my kids off at school this morning and
going to check out the signage, take some photos and speak to
the reception staff at the Leisure Centre. I will then report
back.
#Post#: 53130--------------------------------------------------
Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
DIR By: Albamc
Date: January 13, 2025, 5:22 am
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Well, I have been down to the Leisure Centre, and I have to
honest, from my limited experience it doesn't look great.
On the way into the Leisure Centre, there is a car park for
Permit holders, clearly signposted. Then, further on, there is
the main car park, which has signs about the parking
restrictions at the entrance and around the car park. There is
also a big sign in the entrance and one on reception. To onee
honest, I was clearly concentrating on my kids at the time -
they're both SEN and need an eye kept on them more than parking
signs. I spoke to the reception and they said the system changed
in April and the signs have been up since then, so I guess I
just missed them.
I still think it's a bit silly to have the registration machine
beyond the security gate, and as parking is free for 2 hrs 45
mins and I was clearly a customer as my bank statement proves, I
do feel a PCN is pretty harsh. But unfortunately I don't think
these appear to be good enough grounds to appeal. I have
attached the photos I took, but unless I am missing something, I
think it might be best to just take the £20. Annoyingly.
If anyone disagrees, please let me know!
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