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#Post#: 52490--------------------------------------------------
Greenwich Council, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Bugsby's Way
SE7 Outside Makro SE7
DIR By: josephalabi
Date: January 8, 2025, 11:55 am
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Hello,
I am hoping someone can help me. I received a Penalty Charge
Notice in the post regarding a contravention of me being in a
bus lane. I cannot remember the times that were visible if they
were at all and I was turning left but there was traffic ahead
and the car ahead stopped a little earlier. is there anything
that can be done regarding this? Is there a way I can appeal as
it was literally at the end of the lane.
PCN NUMBER: GR2280780A
VRN: MA10 GCF
Video of contravention:
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cZWq0xrSvIGxbix1RQErc5Icu2FQ55zT/view?usp=sharing
Location (I think):
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/qQENHeeEhAUBCNGy9
Would appreciate help here on how I might be able to appeal
this.
Thank you
cc: @cp8759
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 52500--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Council, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Bugsby's
Way SE7 Outside Makro SE7
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: January 8, 2025, 12:32 pm
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Please to post up all sides of the PCN, redacting only yr name &
address.
#Post#: 52502--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Council, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Bugsby's
Way SE7 Outside Makro SE7
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: January 8, 2025, 12:37 pm
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Looking at the video, one can see a pole on the opposite
carriageway just behind a bus. If one measures the distance from
this point on your side of the road to the end of the bus lane,
you drove in the bus lane for about 18 yards. At one time you
might have got away with this at adjudication on de minimis
grounds, but I don't think this wins nowadays. Nothing to stop
you trying of course. And of course if you take them to London
Tribunals, the full PCN penalty will be in play.
HOwever, this may not be the end of the matter, as there may be
a 'technical' appeal based on Greenwich mismanagement of the
enforcement process, or a fatal error in the PCN (much rarer
now).
#Post#: 52504--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Council, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Bugsby's
Way SE7 Outside Makro SE7
DIR By: josephalabi
Date: January 8, 2025, 12:43 pm
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--- Quote from: John U.K. link ---
>
> Please to post up all sides of the PCN, redacting only yr name
& address.
>
--- End Quote ---
I have uploaded everything I have now, thank you
#Post#: 52771--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Council, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Bugsby's
Way SE7 Outside Makro SE7
DIR By: josephalabi
Date: January 10, 2025, 5:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> Looking at the video, one can see a pole on the opposite
carriageway just behind a bus. If one measures the distance from
this point on your side of the road to the end of the bus lane,
you drove in the bus lane for about 18 yards. At one time you
might have got away with this at adjudication on de minimis
grounds, but I don't think this wins nowadays. Nothing to stop
you trying of course. And of course if you take them to London
Tribunals, the full PCN penalty will be in play.
>
> HOwever, this may not be the end of the matter, as there may
be a 'technical' appeal based on Greenwich mismanagement of the
enforcement process, or a fatal error in the PCN (much rarer
now).
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you for your feedback - would you say it's worth appealing
on these grounds? If so, is there anything specific I should
mention in the appeal as I am unsure.
Thank you for your help.
#Post#: 52773--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Council, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Bugsby's
Way SE7 Outside Makro SE7
DIR By: josephalabi
Date: January 10, 2025, 5:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: John U.K. link ---
>
> Please to post up all sides of the PCN, redacting only yr name
& address.
>
--- End Quote ---
[member=1]cp8759[/member] have you been able to look at this for
me?
Thank you
#Post#: 52785--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Council, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Bugsby's
Way SE7 Outside Makro SE7
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: January 10, 2025, 5:57 am
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[member=3965]josephalabi[/member] code 34 PCNs in London are all
open to technical challenges, and it's not as if Greenwich would
properly fight an appeal anyway, half the time they don't even
put any evidence in.
For now just make a one line representation saying that the
alleged contravention did not occur, Greenwich will reject but
you have to go through the motions.
The TMOs are:
The Greenwich (Bus Lanes) Traffic Order 2001
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k2nGQAcsgD-BEEJ0SGvQ9__rqIY77C9c/view
The Greenwich (Bus Lanes) (Amendment No. 12) Traffic Order 2014
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LOQMZm6eAadByDLvysr5yIN6x-b76asx/view
In the meantime I'll check for other amendments.
#Post#: 52793--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Council, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Bugsby's
Way SE7 Outside Makro SE7
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: January 10, 2025, 6:22 am
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Also, there is no evidence of a 958 warning sign or 959B signage
passed. I would take this all the way. The last two won, they
did not attend either. The 14 days is immaterial.
#Post#: 52801--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Council, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Bugsby's
Way SE7 Outside Makro SE7
DIR By: josephalabi
Date: January 10, 2025, 6:34 am
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Thank you [member=1]cp8759[/member] and
[member=24]Hippocrates[/member]
I used ai to draft an appeal could you help me look below and
see if its okay
RE: Appeal Against Penalty Charge Notice [PCN Number]
Dear Sir/Madam,
I write to formally contest the Penalty Charge Notice referenced
above, issued by the London Borough of Greenwich. I submit that
the alleged contravention did not occur, and the PCN should be
cancelled forthwith for the following reasons:
Non-Compliance with Statutory Traffic Management Orders
The enforcement of the bus lane restriction relies upon The
Greenwich (Bus Lanes) Traffic Order 2001 and its subsequent
amendment, The Greenwich (Bus Lanes) (Amendment No. 12) Traffic
Order 2014. I submit that the requirements set forth in these
Traffic Management Orders (TMOs) have not been satisfied in this
instance.
Inadequate Signage
There is a statutory requirement for clear and proper signage to
be displayed in accordance with the Traffic Signs Regulations
and General Directions 2016. Specifically:
a) No evidence exists of a Diagram 958 warning sign being
present at the required distance before the restriction.
b) There is an absence of the mandatory Diagram 959B signage
past the point of the alleged contravention.
The absence of these prescribed traffic signs renders the
restriction unenforceable, as per the principles established in
various Traffic Adjudicator decisions, including but not limited
to Herron v London Borough of Lambeth [2014] EWHC 1963 (Admin).
Burden of Proof
The burden of proof lies with the enforcement authority to
demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that:
A contravention occurred
The relevant TMOs were properly made and are in force
All prescribed signs and road markings were in place and clearly
visible
I submit that Greenwich Council cannot discharge this burden of
proof in this instance.
Legal Precedent:
The importance of proper signage has been consistently upheld by
the courts, as exemplified in Parking Committee for London v The
Parking Adjudicator [2007] EWHC 1372 (Admin), where it was held
that inadequate signage renders enforcement invalid.
Request for Resolution:
Given the above submissions, I respectfully request that:
The PCN be cancelled immediately
Written confirmation of the cancellation be provided
All enforcement proceedings be terminated
Should the Council wish to maintain this PCN, I require:
Evidence of compliance with the relevant TMOs
Photographic evidence of the required signage in situ
Certification that all signage meets the prescribed requirements
I reserve the right to add to or amend these grounds of appeal
and to introduce additional evidence as it becomes available.
Thank you.
#Post#: 52813--------------------------------------------------
Re: Greenwich Council, Code 34j Being in a bus lane, Bugsby's
Way SE7 Outside Makro SE7
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: January 10, 2025, 7:12 am
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[member=3965]josephalabi[/member] this AI generated crap is a
complete pile of BS and it is wrong for more reasons than I have
time to list.
As I said, make a one line representation as follows: "There was
no contravention of a prescribed order".
You don't need to add anything: the council will reject no
matter what you say but that's not a reason to put in a pile of
nonsense (including made up cases that don't actually exist).
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