DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 58469--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL replied to my appeal 5 months later
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: February 17, 2025, 4:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
TfL have got themselves into a muddle, not that it directly
assists your case but it's indicative of their capability. When
TEC have revoked an OfR on your grounds, 'did not receive
NOR..', then TfL '..shall refer the case to the traffic
adjudicator who may give such direction as he considers
appropriate.'
Their Witness Statement(whatever the hell this is, there's no
procedural provision for such) harks back to them issuing a NOR
and not receiving any notification from Royal Mail that mail
could not be delivered or returned letters. All irrelevant
within the procedure. They also make repeated references to your
'application', but the only application made by you was to TEC.
Anyway, once we know what the adjudicator has decided as regards
their submission dated 29 Jan we'll know what to advise. IMO,
you should have heard from the tribunal by now which reinforces
the need for you to establish an email comms link.
#Post#: 58555--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL replied to my appeal 5 months later
DIR By: traz
Date: February 17, 2025, 9:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
So if I understand correctly, TFL should have issued an NOR but
they skipped this step? And now I need to wait for a response
from the adjudicator?
What are options now?
Is it still possible to clear this PCN at the reduced rate at
this point?
#Post#: 58557--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL replied to my appeal 5 months later
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: February 17, 2025, 9:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: traz link ---
>
> Is it still possible to clear this PCN at the reduced rate at
this point?
>
--- End Quote ---
No, forget about the discount, and frankly it would be foolish
to settle at the discount: if TFL have skipped a crucial step
such as issuing the notice of rejection then you have a winning
appeal, so why on earth would you pay them £80?!?
The case summary says a Notice of Rejection was issued on 15
October, is there a copy in evidence item E?
Have you spoken to the tribunal and got the case number? Have
you changed the communications preference to email?
#Post#: 58944--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL replied to my appeal 5 months later
DIR By: traz
Date: February 19, 2025, 4:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I believe the attached is the copy of the NOR from evidence E.
I called London Tribunals and they have said that it is with the
case management team so it has not been listed.
Yes, I have changed the communication preference to email.
Just a novice question. What should I do now? Just wait for them
to email me?
Thanks
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 58954--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL replied to my appeal 5 months later
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: February 19, 2025, 6:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: traz link ---
>
> Just a novice question. What should I do now? Just wait for
them to email me?
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, but in the meantime I'd do a few things so that you're
armed and ready:
1) Make a subject access request to dpo@tfl.gov.uk asking for a
copy of all the PDF files that have been sent to the tribunal
for your PCN (you will need to give your full name and the PCN
number, and attach proof of ID such as a scan of your driving
licence or a recent utility bill), the copy TFL sends you in the
post will likely be missing a few documents and you want to have
the exact same papers the adjudicator will have.
2) Have a read of Paul Richard Davis v The Royal Borough of
Kensington and Chelsea (1970198981, 30 March 1998)
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-RndFZ_r1JlVDGvo13wKLGpDCy3OBXqW/view,<br
/>it's a decision which has stood the test of time and sets out
the key principles applicable to delays.
3) Have a read of the cases in column D of this spreadsheet
HTML https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pVrE76_RYY6bNmEpYGbsZkxtpfIeud_BT3SKfg7TzQM/edit?gid=642784037#gid=642784037&range=A995<br
/>on rows 995 to 1004, your notice of rejection is affected by
the
same issue (do this on a computer, not on your phone).
4) Has TFL included a DVD with the CCTV footage in the evidence
pack? If not, please call them on 0343 222 3333 and ask them for
a copy, they should send you a DVD in the post.
#Post#: 58967--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL replied to my appeal 5 months later
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: February 20, 2025, 2:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I called London Tribunals and they have said that it is with the
case management team so it has not been listed.
OP, I wonder what this means:
It has been registered as an appeal, or
It has not been registered, or
TfL are trying to exert influence on the adjudicator to (IMO
improperly) look behind TEC's decision?
If the first, why hadn't ETA notified you, and if the second
case why have TfL sent you an 'evidence' pack, there's no
hearing as yet which requires evidence. And as for the third!
My money's on a TfL muddle/improper behaviour.
But there's nothing for you to do except wait.
#Post#: 59036--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL replied to my appeal 5 months later
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: February 20, 2025, 9:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> My money's on a TfL muddle/improper behaviour.
>
--- End Quote ---
Then you'd have lost your money, the case is with the Proper
Officer because if there are no representations / NOR in the
evidence pack, the tribunal writes out to the Appellant asking
for a copy of the representations, while if the reps and NOR are
in the evidence pack then the tribunal just lists the case for a
hearing (it would be pointless to ask the Appellant for a copy
of the representations if the tribunal has them already).
Obviously the POs are very busy but until they go through
evidence item E to check what's there, the case cannot progress.
TFL have sent an evidence pack because they send it to the
Appellant at the same time as they send it to the tribunal.
#Post#: 59065--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL replied to my appeal 5 months later
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: February 20, 2025, 11:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
As I understand it, the Chief Adjudicator made clear in their
2023-2024 Annual Report to ETA
(
HTML https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Annual%20report%20202324.pdf)<br
/>that much confusion still surrounds the issue of SD/WS.
As I read it, when a WS has been submitted under the 'made reps
but did not receive NOR' grounds the owner does not become an
appellant until determined by the adjudicator, which brings us
back to why has the OP not received notice to this effect and
why did TfL go to the lengths of preparing a full-blown evidence
pack when no appeal was actually in place or if it was, when was
this registered etc?
OP, if the advice is that you wait, then wait.
#Post#: 59122--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL replied to my appeal 5 months later
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: February 20, 2025, 5:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> As I read it, when a WS has been submitted under the 'made
reps but did not receive NOR' grounds the owner does not become
an appellant until determined by the adjudicator, which brings
us back to why has the OP not received notice to this effect and
why did TfL go to the lengths of preparing a full-blown evidence
pack when no appeal was actually in place or if it was, when was
this registered etc?
>
--- End Quote ---
Authorities have always been required to provide a full-blown
evidence pack up-front for TEC ground 2 cases, this is
long-standing practice. Until recently the tribunal used to
write to all declarants asking for a copy of the representations
and the case would then go to an adjudicator to decide whether
the case should be listed as an appeal.
I wrote to the Chief Adjudicator in December pointing out that
were the representations and the Notice of Rejection are
included in the evidence pack this process was entirely
pointless because:
A) If the representations are in the evidence pack that the
tribunal already has, asking the declarant to provide a copy is
completely pointless
B) If the letter from the tribunal asking for a copy of the
representations goes missing in the post, or the letter back
from the motorist goes missing in the post, the declarant ends
up with a direction to pay that should have never been issued,
that is a miscarriage of justice that is bound to happen from
time to time given the high volume of Ground 2 cases
C) When a ground 2 declaration has been accepted by TEC and the
motorist produces a copy of the representations, the outcome is
always without exception that the case be listed as an appeal
D) In light of the above, it would be far more efficient for the
admin team to go through Ground 2 referrals from the local
authority so that where there are no representations in the
evidence pack, the standard letter asking for a copy of the
representations goes out, but in cases where the representations
and the NoR are in the evidence pack, the admin team simply
lists the case for a hearing under delegated powers.
Although I never had a reply, the tribunal has now implemented
this process which means that all Ground 2 statutory
declarations go to the Proper Officer team and if the reps and
the NoR are in evidence item E, the case is administratively
listed for adjudication. This saves the declarant from having to
send a copy of the representations, and it saves an adjudicator
from having to look at the case twice.
[member=3936]traz[/member] on this point I'd suggest you call
the tribunal back and ask them to put a note on the case saying
that if the case is to be decided as an appeal, you'd like a
hearing. Otherwise they would list it for a postal decision.
#Post#: 60867--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL replied to my appeal 5 months later
DIR By: traz
Date: March 6, 2025, 5:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Received this email from London Tribunals.
[attachment deleted by admin]
*****************************************************
Page 3 of 4
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page