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#Post#: 51769--------------------------------------------------
PCN (46 - Stopped on Red Route) - TFL: Opp. Cobalt SQ, South
Lambeth Road SW8 [18/12/2024]
DIR By: alphabetazebra
Date: January 3, 2025, 11:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello all,
I recently received a PCN dated 18/12/2024 for a contravention
that allegedly occurred on 8/12/2024. I would appreciate any
advice or guidance you can offer on whether there is a basis to
challenge this PCN, based on the circumstances I outline below.
Summary:
On 8/12/2024, my vehicle was captured on CCTV temporarily
stopped in a bay marked with white dotted lines. My vehicle was
fully within the marked bay while stopped. Beyond the bay are
double red lines. There is a 'Red Route' sign-post on the
pavement next to the bay (facing oncoming traffic), indicating
certain restrictions. A photo I took of the signage is below.
Google maps link to the location of the bay:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/4rvae6sCYw8szpZT7
The PCN posted to me includes two photos: one of my vehicle
(silver Mazda - KL05 KWD) in the bay at time 10:36:37; another
of a different vehicle (dark grey - not mine) at 10:35:53.
Although not appearing on the PCN posted to me, on the TfL
website, there is a third photo showing: my vehicle (silver
Mazda - KL05 KWD) in the bay at time 10:38:46.
Current status:
Since receiving the PCN the only action I have taken so far is:
I called TfL by phone on 27/12/2024 to request the full evidence
package. The PCN is shown on the TfL site as currently 'on hold:
SUS20 - enquiry received'. I am still waiting to receive the
evidence package.
My layman's remarks:
1. Has TfL alleged the correct offence? Offence 46 is described
as 'stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)'.
However, my vehicle is in a white-dashed marked bay that 'breaks
up' the double red lines that lie beyond it, so it is not clear
to me whether a white bay that sits 'in between' two parts of a
red route can constitute the offence of being stopped 'on a red
route'. If this is a valid challenge, is there any specific
wording I should employ in making it?
2. I note some some similarity in my case to the previous case
linked here:
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-(46-red-route)-tfl-opp-cobalt-sq-south-lambeth-road-sw8/msg40652/#msg40652<br
/>
In that case, member H C Andersen observed that the signage
"comprises only two panels and the lower, second, panel does not
accord with regulatory requirements." Indeed, I can see that the
signage is non-compliant in several respects (not least the
absence of the "clearway" graphic in the top panel and the
absence of "No Stopping" wording in the second panel), when
compared to the requirements in:
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/6/made
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/18/made
H C Andersen also observed "And even if it [was compliant], what
does set down or pick up mean in the context of private vehicles
on a Red Route and regulatory wording?". Indeed, there is no
provision in the legislation for these terms from what I can
see.
And, again, more practically, the signage does not actually say
or indicate "No Stopping" anywhere, and is situated alongside a
bay that does not contain (double) red lines, so I unable to see
how this signage can be construed as a 'stopping restriction' at
all (irrespective of any conditions shown in the signage).
In the photo I took after the event (imgur below), the signage
still contains these defects. I assume this remains a valid (and
strong) challenge, is there any specific wording I should employ
in making it, or is it enough just to state both (1) its
non-compliance with the legislative requirements above and (2)
lack of clarity in relation to "set down ... pick up" and (3)
lack of any indication of any restriction against stopping in
the bay?
3. I note the PCN posted to me does not appear to make out the
offence, as there is only one photo in which my vehicle can be
identified. Is this a basis of challenge, or (even if the
signage could somehow be construed to by clear) is the alleged
offence based on all the evidence held by TfL (i.e. the 'third
photo' on the TfL website and the evidence package, once
received).
Imgur images below:
- PCN (6 pages)
- street view location of sign-post/bay and approx location of
my vehicle
- photo of sign-post (taken after event by me)
HTML https://imgur.com/a/pcn-18-12-2024-xNMcp5b
- all pages of PCN
HTML https://i.imgur.com/iIAEHFd.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/gthlDcQ.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/HIc6oFa.jpeg
Thank you all very much in advance!
[member=1]cp8759[/member]
#Post#: 51787--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (46 - Stopped on Red Route) - TFL: Opp. Cobalt SQ, South
Lambeth Road SW8 [18/12/2024]
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: January 3, 2025, 1:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=3890]alphabetazebra[/member] at this stage there is no
"evidence package", what you want is the CCTV footage. Once a
request has been made an entry will appear on the TFL website
saying "DTES footage request", that entry does not appear yet so
I think you need to call again and ask for the CCTV to be sent
to you.
The allegation is correct, stopping is prohibited on the whole
of the red route and the red route includes all red and white
bays along its length, the bays indicate an exception to the
no-stopping prohibition.
How long did you stop for, and were you picking someone up or
dropping someone off?
#Post#: 51793--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (46 - Stopped on Red Route) - TFL: Opp. Cobalt SQ, South
Lambeth Road SW8 [18/12/2024]
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: January 3, 2025, 2:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
IMO,
If the bay indicates an 'exception' then it is obliged to
display a sign in conformity with the TSRGD or a Secretary of
State's Authorisation if it's to meet the authority's LATOR
burden.
As far as TSRGD is concerned, the sign is non-compliant.
It does not refer to 'Except' neither does it use terms which
are prescribed or permitted expressions of Time, Distance or
Parking Restrictions.
IMO, the starus of the bay is at best ambiguous.
#Post#: 53175--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (46 - Stopped on Red Route) - TFL: Opp. Cobalt SQ, South
Lambeth Road SW8 [18/12/2024]
DIR By: alphabetazebra
Date: January 13, 2025, 11:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Many thanks for the replies.
[member=1]cp8759[/member]
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> [member=3890]alphabetazebra[/member] at this stage there is no
"evidence package", what you want is the CCTV footage. Once a
request has been made an entry will appear on the TFL website
saying "DTES footage request", that entry does not appear yet so
I think you need to call again and ask for the CCTV to be sent
to you.
>
--- End Quote ---
Got it - in fact TfL had processed my original request for
footage (but did not enter it on their system as "DTES" for some
reason). In any event, I received the CCTV footage by post on 6
January. I have uploaded it to a (public) Google Drive here
(approx 4 mins duration):
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kdhfwTo_-MBSmHW84gXQztgptMG2hea8/view?usp=drivesdk
--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> How long did you stop for, and were you picking someone up or
dropping someone off?
>
--- End Quote ---
I would estimate I stopped for about 15-20 minutes. I was
dropping off my 9-year-old son at Vauxhall station in time for a
10:45am meet-up at the station. The CCTV captures my car at
10:35am-10:39am, but I am pretty sure I would still have been in
the car at this time, and would have exited the car at around
10:40am to drop him off (i.e. I was waiting in the car until the
appropriate time).
[member=428]H C Andersen[/member]
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> IMO,
>
> If the bay indicates an 'exception' then it is obliged to
display a sign in conformity with the TSRGD or a Secretary of
State's Authorisation if it's to meet the authority's LATOR
burden.
>
> As far as TSRGD is concerned, the sign is non-compliant.
>
> It does not refer to 'Except' neither does it use terms which
are prescribed or permitted expressions of Time, Distance or
Parking Restrictions.
>
> IMO, the starus of the bay is at best ambiguous.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you - understood.
What would you suggest as next steps? Is this now a case of me
drafting Representations to challenge on the grounds of
"contravention did not occur" for you to review, if you would be
so kind?
Do you know what deadline I should now be working to? (I cannot
tell from the "PCN details" shown on the TFL Challenge a PCN
website for this specific PCN.)
#Post#: 53186--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (46 - Stopped on Red Route) - TFL: Opp. Cobalt SQ, South
Lambeth Road SW8 [18/12/2024]
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: January 13, 2025, 11:46 am
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Unless TfL have specified an extended deadline for reps then you
must submit these no later than 16th Jan. As per the PCN, 'no
later than the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the
date of[ deemed] service' which was 20th Dec.
I presume these can be made online - see the PCN for details.
Penalty exceeded .....circumstances of the case
As far as I can see, your reps are based on TfL not using a
prescribed or authorised traffic sign to indicate the
restriction which applied and for which they believe that a
penalty is due, therefore rendering the demand unenforceable and
in excess of that which these circumstances support.
Specifically:
I invite TfL to look at the traffic sign situated o/s SKVP Food
which is immediately adjacent to the location of my alleged
contravention. Quite properly this comprises 3 panels: Red
Route; No Stopping at Any Time; Except Taxis. I then invite you
to look at the traffic sign which purportedly regulates my
location which comprises 2 panels: Red Route; 'P' 2 minutes,
Pick up and set down only.
This sign does not specify the hours of operation of the Red
Route neither does it use the prescribed term 'except' nor does
it comprise 3 panels. The only area of conformity with
regulations is 'Red Route'.
Unless the authority can produce an authorisation from the
Secretary of State to use what is otherwise a manifestly
non-compliant sign [as regards the Traffic Signs etc.
Regulations] then the PCN must be cancelled.
Wait for other views.
#Post#: 53187--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (46 - Stopped on Red Route) - TFL: Opp. Cobalt SQ, South
Lambeth Road SW8 [18/12/2024]
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: January 13, 2025, 11:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=3890]alphabetazebra[/member] I would submit a one line
representation saying that the alleged contravention did not
occur. TFL will reject anything you say, so there's no point in
saying anything else.
Send the representation via
HTML https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn
and take a
screenshot of the confirmation page.
#Post#: 53440--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (46 - Stopped on Red Route) - TFL: Opp. Cobalt SQ, South
Lambeth Road SW8 [18/12/2024]
DIR By: alphabetazebra
Date: January 15, 2025, 6:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks again.
I have just submitted the challenge ("contravention did not
occur" one-liner).
Screenshot:
[img width=1100
height=459]
HTML https://i.imgur.com/IlYJ17x.png?1[/img]
I will revert when TFL respond.
#Post#: 55717--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (46 - Stopped on Red Route) - TFL: Opp. Cobalt SQ, South
Lambeth Road SW8 [18/12/2024]
DIR By: alphabetazebra
Date: January 29, 2025, 6:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=1]cp8759[/member]
As expected, I have now received from TFL a Notice of Rejection
(27/1/2025). Google drive link:
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dvMxTdgbObF_W3g_dJr4sRsbVvtyzBUD/view?usp=drivesdk<br
/>
As I would like to pursue the matter further, I believe the next
step is for me to complete the form to appeal to the Environment
and Traffic Adjudicator. My proposal to to request a 'personal'
hearing (in London/ Chancery Exchange EC4A). In the appeal form,
presumably I should set out (in section 6) the details of why I
believe the alleged contravention did not occur - principally
that as far as TSRGD is concerned, the sign is non-compliant.
Any instructions on drafting this would be appreciated (although
I am equally happy to try my hand at it).
All guidance gratefully received!
Many thanks.
#Post#: 55786--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (46 - Stopped on Red Route) - TFL: Opp. Cobalt SQ, South
Lambeth Road SW8 [18/12/2024]
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: January 29, 2025, 3:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=3890]alphabetazebra[/member] well it seems the NoR is
still flawed, I'll drop you a PM in case you'd like me to
represent you.
#Post#: 73338--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN (46 - Stopped on Red Route) - TFL: Opp. Cobalt SQ, South
Lambeth Road SW8 [18/12/2024]
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: May 26, 2025, 4:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Outcome
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/14pan-YneaxMeVNGvFg8Ml-q4fFAan6S3/view.
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