DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 51493--------------------------------------------------
Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: December 31, 2024, 9:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Miffed link ---
>
> Hello all, thanks for the input.
>
> I've just taken pics of the signs, and I've paced them out
from where I parked, a total of 190 elongated steps away.
>
> Is this catch all sign enough notification, for so many car
spaces when as per my earlier message, I'm used to each bay
having it's own sign, so as to be clear. I pride myself on never
having had a parking ticket, and this just seems manifestly
unfair. I note there is a side road halfway up to the left
signposted "Park Cottages 1-4" and anyone coming out of that
road would not see any sign at all.
>
--- End Quote ---
Indeed there isn't, but to get a vehicle into and out of Park
Cottages, you have to pass the signs, because the other way in
has been blocked off: -
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/J3nWRoi33wXfVPRb8
#Post#: 51497--------------------------------------------------
Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: December 31, 2024, 9:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=3865]Miffed[/member] well the obvious next step is for
me to get hold of the traffic order, but obviously we have to
put a challenge in first as getting the TMO will take some time.
In the meantime do you have any mitigating circumstances,
especially anything unrelated to the contravention itself? And
do you have a dashcam by any chance?
#Post#: 51498--------------------------------------------------
Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
DIR By: Miffed
Date: December 31, 2024, 9:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
No, I don't have a dash cam. Not sure if it's a mitigating
circumstance but that night, I was ill with suspected food
poisoning. Hence just parking there and not a little further on,
where I normally park. I was glad to be getting out of the car
at the first opportunity.
Parking order, is that the legislation from the council? As I
say parking there was not a problem before, not that I've done
it very much, and certainly not for a while. The GSV showing the
new signs is 8 months old, so it's been that long this new
arrangement has been in place.
All other residents bays in the neighbourhood even those 500m
down the hill and close to The Broadway where all the shops are,
are only in operation from 3-4pm Mon to Fri. This is a
completely incongruent arrangement.
I have challenged the pcn, as soon as I saw it
#Post#: 51501--------------------------------------------------
Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: December 31, 2024, 10:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
OP, a Permit Parking Area is defined as follows:
"permit parking area”
an area—
(a)
into which each entrance for vehicular traffic has been
indicated by the sign provided for at item 5 of the sign table
in Part 3 of Schedule 5; and
(b)
where any parking place within that area reserved for the use of
the permit holders as indicated on that sign is not shown by
markings on the road (whether or not an upright sign is placed
next to, or near, such a parking place to indicate that only the
permit holders in question may use the place)
And this represents the law and would be applied by an
adjudicator.
It's possible that the traffic order has not been drafted
correctly, but as posted you wouldn't find out until later in
the process. These orders need careful crafting because every
unmarked(with prescribed traffic signs) length of street is
presumed to be a parking place reserved for permit holders GL
and must therefore be defined as such in the order. Here there
are lengths with no markings, lengths with markings which are
not prescribed(the footway parking markings and the white
markings by vehicle crossovers) and lengths with prescribed
markings(the DYL and School Entrance).
#Post#: 51503--------------------------------------------------
Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: December 31, 2024, 10:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Miffed link ---
>
> No, I don't have a dash cam. Not sure if it's a mitigating
circumstance but that night, I was ill with suspected food
poisoning. Hence just parking there and not a little further on,
where I normally park. I was glad to be getting out of the car
at the first opportunity.
>
--- End Quote ---
Do you have any evidence of that? A call to 111, a complaint to
the restaurant or takeaway, anything like that?
--- Quote from: Miffed link ---
>
> Parking order, is that the legislation from the council?
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, I've already requested it so you don't need to worry about
that.
--- Quote from: Miffed link ---
>
> I have challenged the pcn, as soon as I saw it
>
--- End Quote ---
Please show us a copy of what you sent.
#Post#: 51522--------------------------------------------------
Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
DIR By: Miffed
Date: December 31, 2024, 11:46 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks again for your help here.
No, I think it was from a smoothie my sister had made me at hers
a few hours earlier. She put spirulina powder in it, and it
caused me to have projectile vomiting, which I didn't know was a
thing, but apparently people can be violently allergic to it.
I challenged the pcn through Harrow Councils online portal and
sorry, I didn't take a screenshot of what I wrote. At that time
I was unaware of any signage at all, and I wrote that the notice
is invalid without any signs. It was only after my neighbour
mentioned the signs much further down, that I knew of them. I
mentioned having walked for at least 80m and could see not a
single sign on either side of the road. I also mentioned the
signpost without a sign.
#Post#: 51527--------------------------------------------------
Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: December 31, 2024, 12:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
May have helped if you'd said you are a local resident. I'll
check the tribunal for any cases here.
#Post#: 51533--------------------------------------------------
Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: December 31, 2024, 12:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm sure the council will reject which means you will have to
make a formal representation once you get the notice to owner,
please don't submit formal representations without putting a
draft on here first.
#Post#: 51543--------------------------------------------------
Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: December 31, 2024, 3:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Only one case I can see. Apparently the forum software thinks
the **** is. rude word - it's actually ********.
-------------
2240008938
Green Lane
Decision Date 19 Feb 2024
I was able to conduct the hearing of this case by telephone on
19 February.
The Council did not participate in the call I made to the
appellant. The appellant car had been ticketed on the first day
of several when re-painting nearby tenanted premises where the
landlord had used his frequently (between tenancies for
example). In support of his case I heard from another tradesman
Mr Grainger as a witness. He had been on the same site and had
attracted a similar ticket which had been challenged but not yet
reached tribunal stage.
Since the appellant had last been to where recorded the Council
had introduced new parking restrictions enabling permit holders
to park within the zone, but restricting parking by others.
It had not painted bays in connection with these new
restrictions. It relied on a pair of signs erected at the only
point where cars could be driven in to the permit zone.
The officer issuing the PCN was thus not at fault in his
decision to ticket.
The appellant argued that the pair of signs indicating the
permit requirement beyond them was unfair and very easily
missed.
I have accepted the appellant failed to see the new signs but
this resulted from the confidence he had about free parking,
confidence developed from long but intermittent use. Crucially I
did not accept his argument about inadequate signage. This
signage was in my finding legally sufficient to put drivers on
notice of the permit requirement. This sort of signage
arrangement is now lawful without painted bays or the
еrection of additional signs having passed zone boundary.
Such arrangements are no longer scarce but increasingly found.
I have decided the contravention occurred and I must thus record
this appeal as refused.
#Post#: 51603--------------------------------------------------
Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
DIR By: Miffed
Date: January 1, 2025, 11:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
So the success of any appeal does not look likely. My position
is similar to the appellant, in that I rarely use the road, and
have possibly parked there only 3 times in 4 years. Without
knowing about the change (no other changes have been enacted in
the neighbourhood) it's not difficult to make the presumption
that all was as before.
So, unless there's an error in the parking order, it looks like
pursuing an appeal is a waste of time.
I still find it cynical that they're allowed to say it's legal
without any notifications near to where the parking is to take
place.
*****************************************************
Page 2 of 5
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page