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#Post#: 51277--------------------------------------------------
Really appreciative of advice/help... hugely worried!
DIR By: MaidenInDistress
Date: December 29, 2024, 10:26 am
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Hello
I wonder if anyone could kindly help me. I have always paid for
parking and haven't received car parking fines before so I'm
really in the 'unknown' territory.
I am new to a town in Scotland and parked to do a bit of
shopping. I drove up to the unfamiliar car park spot, saw a
large sign two car spots away from my space (facing my and the
adjacent car bays), read the sign, found a parking payment
meter, paid for parking, displayed the ticket on my dash and
made sure I had returned within the time on the ticket.
I received a parking fine. Apparently I was right on the edge of
a council car park and a private car park. There were not clear
(to me) signs where I parked that showed where the private car
park started and the council car park ended. There were no signs
in my bay where I parked nor on the wall in front of my car park
space. I parked two spaces away from a large sign (see attached)
and thought that this large sign related to my space.
My argument is that you read the sign closest to your spot, if
there was a disabled sign on the wall in front of my bay or on
the large sign two bays away I would not have parked there.
I am annoyed as well as the council has been really encouraging
people to spend more in their independent shops so I did this
for my present shopping.
I challenged and said, for a brand new person (I had recently
emigrated to Scotland) it was unclear. I followed the sign and
bought a ticket, all in good faith.
The council person who responded to my complaint (by email) said
it wasn't unclear and provided the photo (also attached) from
google that shows 'ground markings'. How am I supposed to know
that 'ground markings' relate to parking if there's no sign to
say what those ground markings mean!
There was a council car parking sign when you entered the car
park, about 50 metres or so away from where I parked.
I attach a few photos.
1. My car (registration removed)
2. Parking sign two bays away from where I parked
3. The "proof" photo from the council representative (taken from
google street view). To be clear, I parked where the silver car
is parked against the little stone wall and the sign I followed
is on the street lamp closest to that bay).
The council representative said although they can see it was a
genuine mistake they won't budge.
Can anyone help me? I will be in a lot of strife if I have to
pay the 60 pounds within ten days.
Thank you thank you to anyone who can help.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 51278--------------------------------------------------
Re: Really appreciative of advice/help... hugely worried!
DIR By: MaidenInDistress
Date: December 29, 2024, 10:28 am
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If I have no leg to stand on, I'll have to borrow the money for
the fine but I really think that it's unclear and I bought a
ticket in good faith.
#Post#: 51284--------------------------------------------------
Re: Really appreciative of advice/help... hugely worried!
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: December 29, 2024, 10:42 am
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People here would like to help if they can, but need more
details. At the moment we don't even have a date of the alleged
contravention.
Please to have a read of
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and post here both sides of the unredacted PCN, a copy of your
challenge and of the Council reply (only redact your name &
address),
with a GSV link to the location.
Could you also repost the screenshot from Google with the bay in
which you were parked annotated.
#Post#: 51290--------------------------------------------------
Re: Really appreciative of advice/help... hugely worried!
DIR By: MaidenInDistress
Date: December 29, 2024, 11:18 am
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Apologies, I was excited to find this forum so I had neglected
to include information. Sorry
Here is further information.
Date of contravention: 19/12/24 14:02
Location: Moray Council (from the heading on the excess charge
notice and down the bottom states Grampian Regional Council)
Ladyhill Road Car Park, parked in Council Carpark on edge of
council and private car park.
google image as provided by the Moray Council:-
[img]
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@57.6487164,-3.3197432,3a,75y,152.16h,90t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sssthXC1Gfy5dfr1jjoMtAQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0%26panoid%3DssthXC1Gfy5dfr1jjoMtAQ%26yaw%3D152.1574057011835?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D[/img]
Thank you.
#Post#: 51291--------------------------------------------------
Re: Really appreciative of advice/help... hugely worried!
DIR By: MaidenInDistress
Date: December 29, 2024, 11:20 am
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I'm not sure why the link didn't work to Google
trying again (sorry I'm not hugely familiar with images and
websites)
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/KpQCCScSfSq71D8r6
#Post#: 51298--------------------------------------------------
Re: Really appreciative of advice/help... hugely worried!
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: December 29, 2024, 11:51 am
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Well, the first and most important point is that they have
served you with an Excess Charge Notice, not a Penalty Charge
Notice. The ECN is based on the 1984 Act, (see the top of the
notice), not the 1991 Act that established decriminalised
parking enforcement, so there is no adjudication option. If you
don't accept what their official has said, you can do nothing
and wait for them to prosecute you in the magistrates courts,
(or whatever they are called in Scotland).
Very, very, few councils now work under the 1984 Act,
governments have been encouraging councils to move to the
decrminalised regime of the 1991 Act for decades now, but there
are still a few recalcitrant councils around. Needless to say,
if you end up at the magistrates court, the potential fine is
much larger, but the council get none of it if you're found
guilty.
There is very little about car park fines on their website,
except here : -
HTML http://www.moray.gov.uk/moray_standard/page_80774.html
#Post#: 51303--------------------------------------------------
Re: Really appreciative of advice/help... hugely worried!
DIR By: MaidenInDistress
Date: December 29, 2024, 12:16 pm
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--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> Well, the first and most important point is that they have
served you with an Excess Charge Notice, not a Penalty Charge
Notice. The ECN is based on the 1984 Act, (see the top of the
notice), not the 1991 Act that established decriminalised
parking enforcement, so there is no adjudication option. If you
don't accept what their official has said, you can do nothing
and wait for them to prosecute you in the magistrates courts,
(or whatever they are called in Scotland).
>
> Very, very, few councils now work under the 1984 Act,
governments have been encouraging councils to move to the
decrminalised regime of the 1991 Act for decades now, but there
are still a few recalcitrant councils around. Needless to say,
if you end up at the magistrates court, the potential fine is
much larger, but the council get none of it if you're found
guilty.
>
> There is very little about car park fines on their website,
except here : -
>
HTML http://www.moray.gov.uk/moray_standard/page_80774.html
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you for your help (I hope I have quoted you correctly).
I won't be able to go through the Magistrates court as I
wouldn't have the money for the potential fine (let alone the
money for the original fine). I did look on the Moray website
but, as you say, there's not a lot of information found on
there. I did try to google a lot before asking the question on
here.
So, I think, if I understand what you've said above, my best
option is just to borrow the money from a few friends and pay
it. I thank you for your help.
#Post#: 51327--------------------------------------------------
Re: Really appreciative of advice/help... hugely worried!
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: December 29, 2024, 5:03 pm
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Before you "cough-up", could you, please, post all
coorespondence/emails between you and the council.Suitably
redacted, of course.
#Post#: 51403--------------------------------------------------
Re: Really appreciative of advice/help... hugely worried!
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: December 30, 2024, 1:07 pm
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Here is the section of the 1984 Act concerned with enforcement
of Excess Charge Notices.
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/part/VIII/crossheading/enforcement-of-excess-parking-charges
#Post#: 51417--------------------------------------------------
Re: Really appreciative of advice/help... hugely worried!
DIR By: Daim456
Date: December 30, 2024, 3:40 pm
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What you have is the Excess Charge Notice which is a crminal
offence for parking offence.
Normally there is no right of an Appeal under the legislation,
however I am not familar with Moray Council but can you post up
both side of ECN.
There may be an appeal process at the back.
Why are you disputing the Notice, did you pay for parking?
The sign at the entrance says it is Pay and Display.
You could have this case being heard in Justice of Peace Court
however there is a maximum fine of £500 however it is income
related.
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