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#Post#: 51093--------------------------------------------------
Advice Needed: Old Private PCN in Scotland, Now Debt Collection
Letter from DCBL
DIR By: Happyface
Date: December 27, 2024, 9:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi everyone,
I’m looking for some advice regarding a situation that has me
quite stressed. Here’s the context:
This incident happened over two and a half years ago when I was
living in Scotland. I overstayed a parking limit by about an
hour at a private car park at Dundee.
At the time, I received multiple PCN reminders, but I ignored
them because the general advice I came across suggested that
private PCNs in Scotland weren’t enforceable, or at least that
was my impression back then.
At the end of 2022, I moved to England and didn’t hear anything
further about the PCN—until this week, when I received a letter
from DCBL (Direct Collection Bailiffs Ltd). The letter states
that the fine is now £170 and gives me 14 days to pay.
I’m now unsure what to do and am considering two options:
1- Pay the amount in full to avoid potential headaches, court
action, or additional fees.
2- Call DCBL or the parking company to negotiate a reduced
payment, explaining my situation.
I understand that ignoring the letter is probably not a good
idea at this stage, given the potential consequences. Do you
think negotiating a reduction in the payment is realistic? If
so, how should I approach it? Alternatively, would it be better
to just pay the full amount and move on?
Any advice, feedback, or similar experiences would be greatly
appreciated.
Attached is the DCBL letter.
Thank you!
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 51095--------------------------------------------------
Re: Advice Needed: Old Private PCN in Scotland, Now Debt
Collection Letter from DCBL
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: December 27, 2024, 10:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
There is still no keeper liability in Scotland, so DCBL can be
ignored.
In the unlikely event you receive a "Letter of Claim" from DCB
Legal come back here.
#Post#: 51096--------------------------------------------------
Re: Advice Needed: Old Private PCN in Scotland, Now Debt
Collection Letter from DCBL
DIR By: 666
Date: December 27, 2024, 10:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The threat appears to be one of action in the County Court. That
will prove a challenge for them, as there is no such thing in
Scotland.
#Post#: 51104--------------------------------------------------
Re: Advice Needed: Old Private PCN in Scotland, Now Debt
Collection Letter from DCBL
DIR By: b789
Date: December 27, 2024, 11:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
As a general rule, a keeper cannot be sued in an English court
for an alleged contractual debt arising from an incident in
Scotland, unless specific conditions are met. Under the Civil
Jurisdiction and Judgments Act 1982, contractual disputes are
generally handled in the jurisdiction where the alleged contract
was formed or the incident occurred. If the alleged
contravention took place in Scotland, the proper jurisdiction is
Scottish law, and any court action should be initiated in
Scotland.
Although the keeper now resides in England, this does not
automatically shift jurisdiction to England for an alleged debt
originating in Scotland. The claimant (ECP) would need to
establish that an English court has jurisdiction. This is
challenging if the alleged breach occurred entirely in Scotland,
where keeper liability does not apply.
As the alleged debt arises from a consumer contract (e.g.,
parking terms and conditions), jurisdiction is based on the
location of the contract’s formation or performance. Since the
alleged parking event occurred in Scotland, Scottish
jurisdiction would apply.
The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (which allows keeper
liability in England and Wales) does not apply in Scotland. If
ECP cannot identify the driver (they can't), they cannot hold
the keeper liable. This undermines the basis for suing the
keeper in any jurisdiction.
Even if ECP wanted to pursue the case in England, the defendant
(the keeper) could challenge jurisdiction, arguing that the
claim must be heard in Scotland. This would likely result in the
case being dismissed.
Pursuing a cross-border claim from Scotland to England would be
costly for ECP, particularly given the lack of keeper liability
in Scotland. This means that ECP would never attempt to sue in
England over a Scottish incident.
If proceedings are initiated, you would file a jurisdictional
challenge to have the case dismissed or transferred to Scotland.
However, even if this were for a case in England, this
bottom-dwelling duo, ECP and DCB Legal, would eventually
discontinue as long as the claim is defended.
In the meantime, you can safely ignore DCBL. They are acting as
a debt collector and are powerless to do anything. Under no
circumstances must you communicate with a debt collector. They
are powerless and not a party to any contract allegedly breached
by the driver. Ignore.
Should DCB Legal (not DCBL) send you a Letter of Claim (LoC),
come back and we will give you a suitable response which would
direct them to the answer given in [i]Arkell v Pressdram
(1971)[/I].
#Post#: 51118--------------------------------------------------
Re: Advice Needed: Old Private PCN in Scotland, Now Debt
Collection Letter from DCBL
DIR By: Happyface
Date: December 27, 2024, 1:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DWMB2 link ---
>
> There is still no keeper liability in Scotland, so DCBL can be
ignored.
>
> In the unlikely event you receive a "Letter of Claim" from DCB
Legal come back here.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks for the advice. Just to confirm, is it safe to completely
ignore the DCBL letter? Does my move to England change anything?
And if I get a "Letter of Claim," what should I do? Cheers!
#Post#: 51119--------------------------------------------------
Re: Advice Needed: Old Private PCN in Scotland, Now Debt
Collection Letter from DCBL
DIR By: Happyface
Date: December 27, 2024, 1:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: 666 link ---
>
> The threat appears to be one of action in the County Court.
That will prove a challenge for them, as there is no such thing
in Scotland.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks. Would you say the best approach for me is to ignore it?
#Post#: 51121--------------------------------------------------
Re: Advice Needed: Old Private PCN in Scotland, Now Debt
Collection Letter from DCBL
DIR By: Happyface
Date: December 27, 2024, 1:46 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> As a general rule, a keeper cannot be sued in an English court
for an alleged contractual debt arising from an incident in
Scotland, unless specific conditions are met. Under the Civil
Jurisdiction and Judgments Act 1982, contractual disputes are
generally handled in the jurisdiction where the alleged contract
was formed or the incident occurred. If the alleged
contravention took place in Scotland, the proper jurisdiction is
Scottish law, and any court action should be initiated in
Scotland.
>
> Although the keeper now resides in England, this does not
automatically shift jurisdiction to England for an alleged debt
originating in Scotland. The claimant (ECP) would need to
establish that an English court has jurisdiction. This is
challenging if the alleged breach occurred entirely in Scotland,
where keeper liability does not apply.
>
> As the alleged debt arises from a consumer contract (e.g.,
parking terms and conditions), jurisdiction is based on the
location of the contract’s formation or performance. Since the
alleged parking event occurred in Scotland, Scottish
jurisdiction would apply.
>
> The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (which allows keeper
liability in England and Wales) does not apply in Scotland. If
ECP cannot identify the driver (they can't), they cannot hold
the keeper liable. This undermines the basis for suing the
keeper in any jurisdiction.
>
> Even if ECP wanted to pursue the case in England, the
defendant (the keeper) could challenge jurisdiction, arguing
that the claim must be heard in Scotland. This would likely
result in the case being dismissed.
>
> Pursuing a cross-border claim from Scotland to England would
be costly for ECP, particularly given the lack of keeper
liability in Scotland. This means that ECP would never attempt
to sue in England over a Scottish incident.
>
> If proceedings are initiated, you would file a jurisdictional
challenge to have the case dismissed or transferred to Scotland.
However, even if this were for a case in England, this
bottom-dwelling duo, ECP and DCB Legal, would eventually
discontinue as long as the claim is defended.
>
> In the meantime, you can safely ignore DCBL. They are acting
as a debt collector and are powerless to do anything. Under no
circumstances must you communicate with a debt collector. They
are powerless and not a party to any contract allegedly breached
by the driver. Ignore.
>
> Should DCB Legal (not DCBL) send you a Letter of Claim (LoC),
come back and we will give you a suitable response which would
direct them to the answer given in Arkell v Pressdram (1971).
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation – it’s really helpful.
How likely do you think they are to actually go for a formal
claim? Also, why do you think it’s taken them two and a half
years to pass this to a bailiff collector? Doesn’t that suggest
they’re not serious about pursuing it?
#Post#: 51123--------------------------------------------------
Re: Advice Needed: Old Private PCN in Scotland, Now Debt
Collection Letter from DCBL
DIR By: b789
Date: December 27, 2024, 2:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
You are overthinking this. They have up to 5 years to issue a
claim in Scotland (6 years in the England & Wales).
Knowing how intellectually malnourished the people that work for
DCB Legal are, I wouldn't put it past them to try and issue a
claim for this in the county court. Of course, it won't amount
to anything because of jurisdiction.
The most likely outcome is nothing. They will give up and move
on to lower hanging fruit on the gullible tree.
Sadly, far too many people who receive these PCNs have zero idea
of how to handle them or their rights. You are here now
receiving advice. You won't be paying a penny.
Get on with your life. If they are imbecilic enough to issue a
claim, we can easily deal with it at the time. No need to cross
bridges that aren't there yet.
#Post#: 51145--------------------------------------------------
Re: Advice Needed: Old Private PCN in Scotland, Now Debt
Collection Letter from DCBL
DIR By: Happyface
Date: December 27, 2024, 6:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> You are overthinking this. They have up to 5 years to issue a
claim in Scotland (6 years in the England & Wales).
>
> Knowing how intellectually malnourished the people that work
for DCB Legal are, I wouldn't put it past them to try and issue
a claim for this in the county court. Of course, it won't amount
to anything because of jurisdiction.
>
> The most likely outcome is nothing. They will give up and move
on to lower hanging fruit on the gullible tree.
>
> Sadly, far too many people who receive these PCNs have zero
idea of how to handle them or their rights. You are here now
receiving advice. You won't be paying a penny.
>
> Get on with your life. If they are imbecilic enough to issue a
claim, we can easily deal with it at the time. No need to cross
bridges that aren't there yet.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you for the reassurance.My main concern is that if this
ever went to court, it could potentially impact my good
character profile, as I plan to apply for citizenship in two
years. That’s why I might be overthinking this.
#Post#: 51148--------------------------------------------------
Re: Advice Needed: Old Private PCN in Scotland, Now Debt
Collection Letter from DCBL
DIR By: b789
Date: December 27, 2024, 9:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
This is not a criminal matter. It is a civil contractual
dispute.
Even in the absolute worst case scenario, if it went to court
and you lost, as long as the judgment amount was paid in full
within 28 days, there would be no record of it on your credit
file. It would be completely expunged.
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