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#Post#: 50596--------------------------------------------------
Being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) - Waterloo Road
DIR By: Savas
Date: December 20, 2024, 11:32 am
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Greetings
I would like to challenge this, any advice would be appreciated
before I formulate an informal challenge.
Details:
I was waiting at the traffic lights and there was a bit of
traffic in front, as I was turning left the left lane was clear
where the sign says "end of bus lane" so instead of waiting for
the light to go green then switching to the lane last minute I
decided to switch lane and wait just before the next vehicle.
I've checked Google maps (link below) and can't actually see any
times signs for when this bus lane is not allowed to be used and
I was under the impression you can enter bus lanes as long as
it's one or two car lengths from the end of bus lane sign to get
into the correct lane. I can see I pushed it a bit, however on
this road everyone is going right of the roundabout ahead so I
was not pushing in, hence why none of them wanted to join the
left lane and hence queue had formed.
It seems quite harsh to get a £130/£65 ticket just because I
wanted to join the correct lane and moved to the end of the bus
lane..
282 Waterloo Rd - Google Maps
HTML https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4991398,-0.1063108,3a,75y,94.47h,76.5t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sT0lCHXTClIOinqr4-7Rzhw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D13.500123940541854%26panoid%3DT0lCHXTClIOinqr4-7Rzhw%26yaw%3D94.47003024310214!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
HTML https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4991398,-0.1063108,3a,75y,94.47h,76.5t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sT0lCHXTClIOinqr4-7Rzhw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D13.500123940541854%26panoid%3DT0lCHXTClIOinqr4-7Rzhw%26yaw%3D94.47003024310214!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/235kFVMT/screenshot-2024-12-20-170457-dedacted.png
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/9XdD29p3/screenshot-2024-12-20-170457-dedacted.png
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/q6gpk5yW/screenshot-2024-12-20-170511-dedacted.png
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/1XrXKxtR/screenshot-2024-12-20-170511-dedacted.png
Their images
1.jpg (720×576)
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/zBXq1LXN/1.jpg
2.jpg (720×576)
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/pdBP7Qvk/2.jpg
3.jpg (720×576)
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/MHnxvhQr/3.jpg
4.jpg (720×576)
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/90s2TJPX/4.jpg
#Post#: 50617--------------------------------------------------
Re: Being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) - Waterloo Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: December 20, 2024, 2:16 pm
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--- Quote ---
> I was under the impression you can enter bus lanes as long as
it's one or two car lengths from the end of bus lane sign to get
into the correct lane.
--- End Quote ---
Well, you need to get that impression out of your head pronto,
because there is no such allowance, other than claiming "de
minimis" at the adjudicators, who may well not agree with you.
In fact some adjudicator don't recognise "de minimis" at all.
A look at GSV compared to the photos shows you were in the bus
lane for about 40 metres, way over any possible "de minimis"
argument, sorry to have to say it. So the contravention is made
out, I'm afraid.
However, this may not be game over, because experts on here have
found many "technical" appeal arguments based on poor management
by the council, (or TfL), of the enforcement process, so wait a
bit for more contributions.
#Post#: 50626--------------------------------------------------
Re: Being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) - Waterloo Road
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: December 20, 2024, 3:11 pm
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Back later. Hi Southwark guys if you are watching or got nothing
better to do. 8)
#Post#: 50747--------------------------------------------------
Re: Being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) - Waterloo Road
DIR By: Savas
Date: December 22, 2024, 7:55 am
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--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
> Well, you need to get that impression out of your head pronto,
because there is no such allowance, other than claiming "de
minimis" at the adjudicators, who may well not agree with you.
In fact some adjudicator don't recognise "de minimis" at all.
--- End Quote ---
For so many years I've been assuming there's a little leeway..
See here, specifically 1.15:
Eops Schedule 2 (SoR) Appendix 9 TfL Business Rules
HTML https://content.tfl.gov.uk/eops-schedule2-appendix9-tfl-business-rules.pdf
"A representation is made on the basis that the driver had to
temporarily drive in a bus lane, in order that they could turn
left to access a side road or driveway."
"if distance within the Bus Lane is less than 20 metres,
accept."
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
> A look at GSV compared to the photos shows you were in the bus
lane for about 40 metres, way over any possible "de minimis"
argument, sorry to have to say it. So the contravention is made
out, I'm afraid.
--- End Quote ---
Thanks for your honesty, although wouldn't say 40 metres, if I
remember correctly about 4 cars. Getting a fine because all the
vehicles in front of you want to go ahead and you want to turn
left thus keep the traffic flowing.. This is going to make me
question the next time I go into a bus lane only to move around
a vehicle when they're turning into a side road. I've seen
people do this and it's quite woeful.
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
> However, this may not be game over, because experts on here
have found many "technical" appeal arguments based on poor
management by the council, (or TfL), of the enforcement
process, so wait a bit for more contributions.
>
--- End Quote ---
Anyway I can confirm or check if this is the case? Also would
the lack of a blue sign near the middle be a case to go on as it
is a bit long, because mistakenly as it was dark part of me at
the time thought it was way passed the usual time a bus lane is
operational.
I also turned from Webber Row (opposite side) so many things to
look for when turning and that sign I did not see. I've been at
this road before and wondered why there wasn't a sign.
See - Case 5 – Inadequate signage
Adjudicators decisions and case studies for a bus lane PCN
HTML https://penaltychargenotice.co.uk/bus-lanes/adjudicators-decisions-and-case-studies-bus-lanes/
The post here
HTML https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4994996,-0.1067666,3a,35.5y,108.89h,89.14t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAj59pEQ9oRUdjT_-2KLbyg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D0.8560913901599605%26panoid%3DAj59pEQ9oRUdjT_-2KLbyg%26yaw%3D108.89474430632131!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTIxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D<br
/>seems like a sign existed before.
#Post#: 50778--------------------------------------------------
Re: Being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) - Waterloo Road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: December 22, 2024, 2:31 pm
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Whatever TfL may say in business rules is surely irrelevant,
because this is a Southwark PCN. Nowadays all London councils,
(and TfL for that matter), are extremely greedy for money, so
ruthlessly game the system to make sure it rolls in. So if you
want to fight your case, the only place you will get a
reasonably fair hearing is London Tribunals, with the full PCN
penalty in play.
I measured your distance in the bus lane by matching the photo
of your car entering it with the bus stop markings on a
satellite view in GSV and then to the end of the bus lane. It
came to just under 40 metres.
You are probably better with Hippocrates who has a strong
'technical' appeal argument.
#Post#: 51248--------------------------------------------------
Re: Being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) - Waterloo Road
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: December 29, 2024, 5:04 am
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I would go with the signage and light. Also, say there is no
signage shown in the video allegedly passed. And put them to
strict proof the camera is approved.
Sorry, no issues with the PCN.
#Post#: 54591--------------------------------------------------
Re: Being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) - Waterloo Road
DIR By: Savas
Date: January 22, 2025, 1:12 pm
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So this came through the post. The letter is dated 10/01/2025,
however I received this on the 20th.
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/ctM5XzkN/screenshot-2025-01-22-190425-dedacted.png
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/rsvXFXSz/screenshot-2025-01-22-190425-dedacted.png
I am pretty sure I wrote my challenge as I remember proof
reading it then sending it through. I luckily have a copy. Shall
I just send it via the online page again?
When I made the challenge, I received an email with an
attachment, after checking that also seems blank I guess maybe
it is indeed a bug in their system.
#Post#: 54626--------------------------------------------------
Re: Being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) - Waterloo Road
DIR By: SITR
Date: January 22, 2025, 8:26 pm
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The bus lane signage at the beginning & end of that stretch look
fine & the legend "BUS LANE" is painted on the road twice, so I
don't see any technicality to get out of it.
Also you've potentially transgressed further by crossing a solid
white line.
Let's be honest here - it wasn't about you "keeping the traffic
flowing", it was impatience on your behalf. I'm all for
challenging the system and the jumped-up CEOs that think they're
so important, but for this one I'd say "Just take it on the chin
and don't do it again".
#Post#: 54649--------------------------------------------------
Re: Being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) - Waterloo Road
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: January 23, 2025, 4:17 am
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--- Quote from: Hippocrates link ---
>
> I would go with the signage and light. Also, say there is no
signage shown in the video allegedly passed. And put them to
strict proof the camera is approved.
>
> Sorry, no issues with the PCN.
>
--- End Quote ---
The last ground contains in brackets irrelevant and confusing
information.
Resend citing this as well, plus no signage allegedly passed,
plus proof of camera certification.
#Post#: 54773--------------------------------------------------
Re: Being in a bus lane (camera enforcement) - Waterloo Road
DIR By: Savas
Date: January 23, 2025, 1:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: SITR link ---
>
> The bus lane signage at the beginning & end of that stretch
look fine & the legend "BUS LANE" is painted on the road twice,
so I don't see any technicality to get out of it.
>
> Also you've potentially transgressed further by crossing a
solid white line.
>
> Let's be honest here - it wasn't about you "keeping the
traffic flowing", it was impatience on your behalf. I'm all for
challenging the system and the jumped-up CEOs that think they're
so important, but for this one I'd say "Just take it on the chin
and don't do it again".
>
--- End Quote ---
It wasn't "impatience" as you put. I have a habit of making sure
I am in the correct lane in advance and I live local, in fact
many years and use the road regularly yet never went on the bus
lane, seeing the lane empty where the end of bus lane sign is I
try to use bus lanes accordingly. I saw a queue of cars and the
left lane empty apart from one car next to the light and as I
pre-emptively move onto the left when I see the sign I did so a
bit too early on this occasion.
I hate to see bureaucracy beat common sense. If they all want to
turn right or go straight, and I want to go left, I find it
really hard to just "take it on the chin" for rules that put you
in line, ironically. The lights change fast and they all tend to
go towards Elephant & Castle so as I am going left it's very
silly to get stuck in the queue and not just move over the bus
lane. It's a similar situation to move around a vehicle blocking
the single lane road. People shouldn't get tickets for just
having common sense.
--- Quote from: SITR link ---
> Also you've potentially transgressed further by crossing a
solid white line.
--- End Quote ---
What do you mean?
--- Quote from: Hippocrates link ---
>
> [quote author=Hippocrates link=topic=4376.msg51248#msg51248
date=1735470280]
> I would go with the signage and light. Also, say there is no
signage shown in the video allegedly passed. And put them to
strict proof the camera is approved.
>
> Sorry, no issues with the PCN.
>
--- End Quote ---
The last ground contains in brackets irrelevant and confusing
information.
Re send citing this as well, plus no signage allegedly passed,
plus proof of camera certification.
[/quote]
Not sure what you're mean to be honest. Which ground do you
mean?
EDIT: Oh and I also recieved this email this morning, the
attachment is exactly the above letter:
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/dhKxfJvM/screenshot-2025-01-23-193650-dedacted.png
HTML https://i.postimg.cc/13g1fzjz/screenshot-2025-01-23-193650-dedacted.png
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