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#Post#: 49938--------------------------------------------------
Barnet Council - 31J Stopping in Box Junction - Edgware Bus
Station Entrance (northbound)
DIR By: taylorjohn21
Date: December 15, 2024, 10:07 am
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I would like to know from members on this forum whether they
believe I have legal grounds to appeal a PCN I
recently received from my local council.
The PCN was issued for the following traffic contravention - 31J
Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited.
The photographic evidence (together with the time stamps)
provided by the Council is shown below.
Picture 1 - 13:58:58
[attachimg=1]
Picture 2 - 13:59:09
[attachimg=2]
Picture 3 - 13:59:09
[attachimg=3]
Picture 4 - 13:59:10
[attachimg=4]
I challenged this PCN as follows
--- Quote ---
> I would like to challenge the liability for PCN AG47146723 on
the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur. I did
not enter and stop in a box junction when prohibited.
>
> 1) In the frames you have provided - 2024-11-12 13:58:09 and
2024-11-12 13:59:10 - the exit was not blocked by stationary
traffic when I entered the box junction as the bus and the
traffic ahead of the box junction was still moving.
>
> 2) On the date the PCN was issued - 12/11/2024 - I believe
there was a set of temporary traffic lights situated beyond the
box junction on Station Road which were green when I entered the
box junction.
>
> 3) My rear red brake lights were not on when my car was
photographed in the box junction behind the bus in frames
2024-11-12 13:59:09 and 2024-11-12 13:59:10 - my car was,
therefore, still in motion when the PCN was issued.
--- End Quote ---
The Council rejected my challenge - their response is in the
post below.
I also attach the PCN certificate and the rejection letter from
the Council.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 49940--------------------------------------------------
Follow up from above post
DIR By: taylorjohn21
Date: December 15, 2024, 10:12 am
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Here is the response from the Council to my challenge
--- Quote ---
> We have carefully considered your comments and decided not to
cancel your PCN.
>
> You have stated that there was temporary traffic lights,
please be advised that traffic lights,
> temporary or otherwise have no bearing on box junction
criteria as box junctions are in place to
> prevent gridlock and ease congestion. As such, if the light is
green, but the exit is not clear
> motorists must wait behind the box, until they can drive
through without stopping.
>
> The PCN was issued because your vehicle entered the box
junction with the exit lane not being
> clear and stopped due to the presence of a stationary vehicle
in front, a bus, which entered the
> restricted area prior to your vehicle. A contravention occurs
if the motorist enters the box
> junction and has insufficient space at the other side to exit
without stopping. A contravention is
> committed if any part of the vehicle is left stationary within
the confines of the box junction
> regardless of the length of time involved.
>
> The CCTV footage shows your vehicle travelling through the
box, following the vehicle ahead,
> without slowing or waiting to ensure your exit route or lane
was clear prior to entering.
> Please be advised that motorists should not follow the vehicle
in front as it may stop and
> prevent their exit from the box junction.
>
> The Highway Code Rule 174 states: "Box junctions. These have
criss-crossed yellow lines
> painted on the road (see 'Road markings'). You MUST NOT enter
the box until your exit road or
> lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when
you want to turn right and are
> only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other
vehicles waiting to turn right. At
> signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you
can cross over it completely
> without stopping."
>
> It is the practice of some drivers to follow other vehicles
into box junctions, on the assumption
> that the traffic will continue to flow smoothly, so that their
own vehicle will not have to stop in
> the box junction. However, the only way a driver can ensure
that their vehicle does not breach
> the above contravention, is by not entering the box junction
until a space large enough to
> accommodate their vehicle can be seen beyond the junction
markings.
>
> The Council would like to refer you to the following web link
(Online Media), to where you can
> view the CCTV evidence of the contravention; as well as the
photographic images;
--- End Quote ---
Is the Council right about this? Or should I appeal the decision
to the independent Environment and Traffic
Adjudicator? Bear in mind that if I appeal and lose then the
penalty charge I have to pay would increase from
£65.00 to £130.00.
I would be grateful for any advice you can offer on this forum.
Please let me know if you need any further information
John Taylor
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 49941--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet Council - 31J Stopping in Box Junction - Edgware Bus
Station Entrance (northbound)
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: December 15, 2024, 10:18 am
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The video is the evidence: please download it and post here.
#Post#: 49951--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet Council - 31J Stopping in Box Junction - Edgware Bus
Station Entrance (northbound)
DIR By: taylorjohn21
Date: December 15, 2024, 10:47 am
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--- Quote from: John U.K. link ---
>
> The video is the evidence: please download it and post here.
>
--- End Quote ---
Here is the link to the video
HTML https://barnetocm.itsvc.co.uk/PCN/GetPartialVideo?v=4A0097F6ED2CBDDC5FEEAF7E4E1EFF9EE957FC819377A7F18691335DBE90FB637D27233CCF8AB25883056A5562971AD2C3A0F82FE9B150AC84C78BFE52684A563EFCEEEFFF92609281EE8F134400B0CB4C9817340404A06FA0F5689F8379685A672DCB57F8DA47166025A1908E29B7594316FC3DFB174965EB006B1ED157F6436A2327EB71A9725055B7345B78E78CC4027877450E91CBE432B6D17C71EEDD71343D7B1EDB4BEDE3214FDDA1464E8B61
HTML https://barnetocm.itsvc.co.uk/PCN/GetPartialVideo?v=4A0097F6ED2CBDDC5FEEAF7E4E1EFF9EE957FC819377A7F18691335DBE90FB637D27233CCF8AB25883056A5562971AD2C3A0F82FE9B150AC84C78BFE52684A563EFCEEEFFF92609281EE8F134400B0CB4C9817340404A06FA0F5689F8379685A672DCB57F8DA47166025A1908E29B7594316FC3DFB174965EB006B1ED157F6436A2327EB71A9725055B7345B78E78CC4027877450E91CBE432B6D17C71EEDD71343D7B1EDB4BEDE3214FDDA1464E8B61
#Post#: 49952--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet Council - 31J Stopping in Box Junction - Edgware Bus
Station Entrance (northbound)
DIR By: mickR
Date: December 15, 2024, 10:48 am
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nope
#Post#: 49958--------------------------------------------------
PCN Video Evidence
DIR By: taylorjohn21
Date: December 15, 2024, 11:19 am
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I also managed to download the video evidence in MP4 format - do
you need me to send it to you or upload it somewhere?
Kind regards
John
#Post#: 49962--------------------------------------------------
Reply to John U.K. and Mick R
DIR By: taylorjohn21
Date: December 15, 2024, 11:44 am
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--- Quote from: mickR link ---
>
> nope
>
--- End Quote ---
I have uploaded the video evidence in MP4 format as a zipfile,
please let me know if you can now view it.
Thank you John
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 49979--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet Council - 31J Stopping in Box Junction - Edgware Bus
Station Entrance (northbound)
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: December 15, 2024, 1:27 pm
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You don't seem to have posted the PCN, so please do so. Only
redact name and address. We can go and look at the video using
your PCN Number and car reg, its easy-peasy. The offence occurs
at the point of entry into the box, and the video must show
this. Their rejection is the usual Fob-Off, I'm afraid.
#Post#: 49983--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet Council - 31J Stopping in Box Junction - Edgware Bus
Station Entrance (northbound)
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: December 15, 2024, 1:52 pm
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HTML https://i.imgur.com/3BfZXtw.gif
HTML https://imgur.com/3BfZXtw
#Post#: 49987--------------------------------------------------
Re: Barnet Council - 31J Stopping in Box Junction - Edgware Bus
Station Entrance (northbound)
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: December 15, 2024, 2:14 pm
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Having now seen the video, I don't think it supports your case.
You entered the box just when the bus was turning in front of
you at the other end of the box, and there was no space
available for you to leave the box. However, there may well be a
'technical' appeal case based on council management of the
enforcement process and the content of the PCN. Hippocrates is
ace at finding these, much to the chagrin of the councils that
lose their cases !
So wait a bit for others to contribute.
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