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#Post#: 49584--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain
vehicles local buses and cycles only
DIR By: Mags_2024
Date: December 12, 2024, 4:39 pm
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Can you see all 4 pages now, Hippocrates?
#Post#: 49679--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain
vehicles local buses and cycles only
DIR By: Mags_2024
Date: December 13, 2024, 11:46 am
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Is anyone able to offer any advice on whether there's an
argument to be had regarding our two PCN's or should we just
bite the bullet and pay up before the 14 days runs out?
#Post#: 49785--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain
vehicles local buses and cycles only
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: December 14, 2024, 9:13 am
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I would pay the first and make reps on the second saying you've
paid the first and would they kindly exercise discretion on the
second owing to the close timing and difficulty in navigating
the area to a hospital appointment.
That is unless Hippo has something.
#Post#: 49811--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain
vehicles local buses and cycles only
DIR By: Mags_2024
Date: December 14, 2024, 11:38 am
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--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> I would pay the first and make reps on the second saying
you've paid the first and would they kindly exercise discretion
on the second owing to the close timing and difficulty in
navigating the area to a hospital appointment.
>
> That is unless Hippo has something.
>
--- End Quote ---
That sounds like a good plan, thank you.
I haven't heard anything from Hippocrates but hopefully he'll
get back to me over the weekend.
Thanks again.
#Post#: 49874--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain
vehicles local buses and cycles only
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: December 15, 2024, 5:44 am
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The online taken without consent ground clearly limits to theft:
At the time the alleged contravention or failure took place the
person who was in control of the vehicle was in control of the
vehicle without the consent of the owner (please provide a copy
of the police crime report or insurance claim).
#Post#: 49911--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain
vehicles local buses and cycles only
DIR By: Mags_2024
Date: December 15, 2024, 8:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hippocrates link ---
>
> The online taken without consent ground clearly limits to
theft:
>
> At the time the alleged contravention or failure took place
the person who was in control of the vehicle was in control of
the vehicle without the consent of the owner (please provide a
copy of the police crime report or insurance claim).
>
--- End Quote ---
There was no theft, my husband was driving.
I'm guessing that we don't really have much of an argument and
should just pay for one and get in touch with Camden regarding
the second?
#Post#: 49935--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain
vehicles local buses and cycles only
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: December 15, 2024, 9:58 am
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Hippocrates is not suggesting that your husb. was stealing yr
car !
There may be legitimate reasons why a vehicle was being driven
without the owner's consent (e.g. by a garage, but not in the
course of repair work - that is not theft -others may think of
better examples).
By demanding a police report, the council is limiting the ground
by changing it from
taken without the owner's consent
to
taking it in the course of theft
which restriction they are not allowed to place on it, which
amounts to procedural impropriety.
--------------EDIT
All that said, on checking the backs of the PCNs, I cannot see
the clause @Hippocrates identified
--- Quote ---
> (please provide a copy of the police crime report or
insurance claim).
--- End Quote ---
not could I advance far enough on the challenge PCN pages to see
if it appears there?
(PCN nos/reg mark not recognised?)
#Post#: 49948--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain
vehicles local buses and cycles only
DIR By: Mags_2024
Date: December 15, 2024, 10:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: John U.K. link ---
>
> By demanding a police report, the council is limiting the
ground by changing it from
> taken without the owner's consent
> to
> taking it in the course of theft
>
> which restriction they are not allowed to place on it, which
amounts to procedural impropriety.
>
--- End Quote ---
I didn't think Hippocrates was suggesting my husband had stolen
the car, but didn't quite understand the point he was making to
be honest.
I understand it now. Thank you, and thanks to Hippocrates for
picking up this point
I cannot locate the statement regarding the request for a police
report online. I've looked at the various files on the Camden
website
HTML https://www.camden.gov.uk/parking-policies-guides
and
can't see it there. Can you point me in the right direction?
If we challenge the PCN, does this stop the clock on the 14 days
for reduced payment?
#Post#: 49976--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain
vehicles local buses and cycles only
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: December 15, 2024, 1:05 pm
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HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/harrow-camrose-ave-bus-gate-33e-pcn-33e-using-restricted-to-certain-ve-957/msg14128/#msg14128
ETA Register of Appeals
Register kept under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking
Adjudicators) (London) Regulations 1993, as amended and
Regulation 17 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic
Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England)
Regulations 2022.
Case Details
Case reference 2110212199
Appellant Chidi Egenti
Authority London Borough of Islington
VRM EA02WFR
PCN Details
PCN IS2284987A
Contravention date 12 Feb 2011
Contravention time 12:06:00
Contravention location Drayton Park/Horsell Road N5
Penalty amount GBP 120.00
Contravention Entering and stopping in a box junction
Referral date -
Decision Date 07 Jul 2011
Adjudicator Teresa Brennan
Appeal decision Appeal allowed
Direction cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.
Reasons Mr Egenti appeals and raises a number of issues both in
his initial representations and in the Notice of Appeal.
One of the issues that Mr Egenti raised was wither the Penalty
Charge Notice was enforceable as he states that the third ground
of appeal, box C on the Penalty Charge Notice inaccurately
reflects the statutory ground. Further he says that by stating
that the insurance claim or crime report be provided that this
fetters the basis on which a representation on this basis can be
made. In his initial representations Mr Egenti specifically
raised the issue of circumstances in which a relative might have
taken the keys to the car without his consent.
In the Notice of Rejection issued on 30th March 2011 the local
authority stated: 'If relative takes the car without permission
the registered keeper of the vehicle is still liable for the
charge unless they report the matter to the police' Whilst it
may be that a local authority would not accept a representation
made on this basis without a crime report there is no obligation
on a registered keeper to provide a crime report and it is
incorrect in law to state that a registered keeper must provide
a crime report when relying on this ground of appeal. I find
that the Notice of Rejection wrongly states the law and that it
is therefore misleading.
The London Local Authorities Act 2003 imposes a duty on an
enforcement authority to consider representations made and to
then serve a notice indicating the decision that has been made.
In this case I find that the London Borough of Islington has
failed to properly consider the representations because the
Notice of Rejection inaccurately states the law. As this could
have misled the appellant into not putting forward a particular
basis of appeal I find that the local authority failed in its
duty to consider the representations. Therefore I find that the
local authority cannot enforce this Penalty Charge Notice and I
allow this appeal.
I will draft a better one.
The Penalty Charge Notice was enforceable since the third
ground of appeal, box C on the website inaccurately reflects the
statutory ground. Further, by stating that the insurance claim
or crime report be provided, this fetters the basis on which a
representation on this basis can be made. For example, it is
entirely arguable yhat a relative might have taken the keys to
the car without my consent. In such circumstance, I would not
report the matter
DO NOT cite the case.
#Post#: 50035--------------------------------------------------
Re: Camden: Tottenham Court Road - Route restricted to certain
vehicles local buses and cycles only
DIR By: Mags_2024
Date: December 16, 2024, 1:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hippocrates link ---
>
>
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/harrow-camrose-ave-bus-gate-33e-pcn-33e-using-restricted-to-certain-ve-957/msg14128/#msg14128
>
> I will draft a better one.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you Hippocrates
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