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#Post#: 3598--------------------------------------------------
Totting up or potential ban?
DIR By: unknowndriver
Date: August 20, 2023, 2:10 pm
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Hello all,
Will explain as best as i can. Im asking for advice to see what
could i end up with potentially.
To also further let you know, i have done a driver improvement
course in the summer of 2021 but another offense later down the
year of 2021 left me with 3 points on license for driving
without due care and attention.
On Thursday 17/08, i was driving to pick up a family member who
was having some health problem from their shift at work. I wasnt
manically driving, was trying to get to them as soon as i could.
The road i was going down has a normal traffic lane and a bus
lane to the left of the traffic lane. There is a major
roundabout towards end of road i was driving down and i have to
go straight across the roundabout. As i was some far back of the
road i saw a few cars which were slowing down, i thought maybe
queue was building up for whatever reason, which does happen for
those needing to get to the A12. I saw a car leave the queue and
use the bus lane to get out. As i got more closer to the back of
few cars, i read the bus time sign and saw that it was out of
hours, so just like the car that had used it, i decided to use
it so i wasnt caught up. As i got in to the bus lane and tried
picking up speed, since the road bends slightly, as im near
ending the bus lane, i see the car at the front of the queue has
no other cars in front of it, because the road bends, my vision
is a bit obscured from seeing the front right side of that car,
as ive gone past 3/4 of that car, ive realised that at the
pedestrian refuge island, there is a mother and her child almost
halfway across the car that has stopped, realising this ive
tried to slow down as quick as i can but i had already gone a
lot past them and only managed to completely slow down after.
Unfortunately, the car behind the car that had stopped for the
parent and child, was an undercover ford estate. They have
immediately turned the sirens and lights on and cut me off from
the beginning after i was stationary. The officer from the
passenger side jumped out to me and said i almost hit the child
and the parent, i apologised to the officer, i tried getting
some words in but he was furious and tried opening my door also.
The driver of the car that had stopped jumped out also and was
asking me what i was doing etc and in front of the officer said
to me, 'Youre lucky they pulled you over otherwise i was gonna
chase you down, drag you out and punch you up'. I did not say
anything to make matters worse and was told by the officer to
pull into the KFC parking lot next to the roundabout.
When we got there, i was asked for my license and i explained i
didnt have it and the same officer said to me, 'Well you better
get someone to effing bring it down here'. I said to him i may
have a picture on my phone and showed him that, i repeatedly
apologised about the situation, understanding what i had done
however i was also trying to explain that because of the bend i
was unable to even see the the head of the parent, i was
confused as to why the driver stopped at the pedestrian island.
The parent and her child came to get their details taken and the
driver of the car who stopped was also there to be as a witness.
I was also told me using the bus lane is a crime and counts as
undertaking.
The officer had already started the ticketing process and was
saying to me about the manner of my driving and i should be
looking at a ban. The officer that was driving the undercover
car approached me after taking the details from others, and said
to me that i should deserve to get my license taken away, what i
did could have killed the child etc. I stayed quiet as i was
already shaken up from what happened and because of the
aggressive threat i got from the other driver. The officer was
at times close to my face when i was trying to explain and would
shut me down.
I was told im being out down for a speeding offence, driving
without due car and attention ( which i already have 3 points
for since boxing day 2021) and driving without considerable
reason to other road users. Some minutes after i was told the
speeding offence is being dropped but the other two remain.
After about 25-30minutes, i was told i would receive something
in the post within 6 months. I forgot to ask for any information
such as a ref number. I was further told that the incident was
recorded on the bodycam, so if i decide to contest this later,
that will be used and there could be 5-6 witnesses against me.
I understand i have not got anything solid to give here for a
specific answer, however what i could i be looking at?
I work at a job which requires driving around and i have family
members who do depend on me due to their health conditions. I
have already been driving extra careful since i received the 3
points which i also i think have a year and a half left before
they finish, so this is more stress.
Could i be looking at a ban due to the comments made by the
officer of how my driving nearly killed a child?
Would they merge the two offenses as they are linked together in
this case?
If it does end up going to court when i receive the charges
back, would i need a solicitor for this?
I am attaching the map link below to help
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/R5FaXnSvSCQThz9J8
Thanks for the lengthy read and for any answers
#Post#: 3647--------------------------------------------------
Re: Totting up or potential ban?
DIR By: The Rookie
Date: August 21, 2023, 10:25 am
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Until we know what if/you're charged with then it's impossible
to say - what could happen are
1/ Nothing more, they think the bollocking was enough
2/ You could get offered an awareness ('what's driving us')
course
3/ You could get a 'summons' (Single Justice Procedure Notice
now) for careless driving (so 3-9 points so at the very top end
you risk a totting ban).
4/ Or for dangerous driving which is a mandatory 1 year
disqualification.
While vaguely interesting there is really no value in playing
'what ifs' until the Police make the next move (or not).
Was the bus lane live at the time or just a normal lane as it
has specific hours of operation.
A pedestrian crossing there doesn't have priority and should
have been giving way to traffic so while you still need to drive
with due care and attention the officers ire seems a slightly
misdirected.
#Post#: 3659--------------------------------------------------
Re: Totting up or potential ban?
DIR By: unknowndriver
Date: August 21, 2023, 2:22 pm
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Thank for your reply, i understand that until i dont receive
anything from the police, its difficult to give advice without
it, just wondered if anyone has been in this or a similar
situation.
In response to your answers:
1/ Would the officers notes influence the outcome of this?
2/ Is the Whats driving us course different from the Driver
improvement course? I know i have done course in the summer of
2021 for driving without due care, just trying to understand if
another course would be given despite having done one?
3/ If i do receive a summons, do the officers and other
witnesses usually attend? Could i do some sort of plea bargain
at that stage?
4/ Will an exceptional hardship help in this stage if it gets
there? has it helped anyone?
The bus lane was out of hours, it ended at 7pm and i entered it
around 7:15-7:20pm, i cant be sure of the exact time however, i
only used it as i had seen it was out of hours and i was near to
the end of the bus lane.
I agree with that the pedestrian crossing doesnt have priority,
especially on a busy road as that coming up to a major
roundabout, what i dont understand is why the officer didnt
question the driver who did stop.
Could i use this as a defence if needed later on, that the
driver stopped where he didnt need to? i understand my part in
what ive done however i did what i have seen many do, except in
this case i didnt expect the unexpected.
Also, should i write a police report or complaint about the
officer who allowed the other driver to pretty much threaten me
with violence? Could this impact the case against me in anyway?
#Post#: 3664--------------------------------------------------
Re: Totting up or potential ban?
DIR By: Irksome
Date: August 21, 2023, 4:21 pm
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1) Prabably
2) I believe you are using two names for the same thing.
3) depends what you do with the SJPN, if that is what you
receive. Too early to tell if this is going anywhere near a
court, let alone an in person trial.
4) depends on what you are charged with / found guilty of.
Sounds very much like you are panicking about this and thinking
of ways to hit back - you have no options at this point other
than to wait and see what you get, if anything.
#Post#: 3669--------------------------------------------------
Re: Totting up or potential ban?
DIR By: The Rookie
Date: August 22, 2023, 2:32 am
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1/ Yes, the Traffic Offence Report will contain a description
and any recommendation, it's all the back office have to go on
when deciding on which route to take
2/ Same course, 'whats driving us' is the official name but it
is an improvement course, so no, you won't (shouldn't) be
offered another
3/ If you plead guilty you would normally be sentenced on the
facts as stated in the charge, you can enter a 'Newton plea'
where you plead guilty but contest some of the facts where a
witness will usually attend if it's required, the court will
hear evidence from both sides and decide what facts they will
use for sentencing, not sure what sort of plea bargain (noting
there is no formal procedure for this in the UK unlike the US)
you can entre, but Careless and Dangerous driving are statutory
alternatives so if charged with one but te facts indicate the
other is more appropriate the court will find and sentence
accordingly.
4/ Exceptional hardship ONLY applies to totting bans, and yes of
course you can submit such a plea if you do tot, given we have
no knowledge of your basis for it then it's hard to know the
chances of success.
If the bus lane was out of hours, then as long as you weren't
speeding and could stop in the distance reasonably required then
it's hard to see how your driving fell below that of a careful
and competent driver (the definition for careless) let alone
'far below' (dangerous).
#Post#: 4647--------------------------------------------------
Re: Totting up or potential ban?
DIR By: unknowndriver
Date: September 8, 2023, 3:03 pm
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Hi all, coming back to this.
I received a letter last Friday 1st September, been busy with
work and forgot to post here for advice. The date on the actual
letter is 25th August.
With what im being charged, which in one sense is a lot better
than being charged with driving without due care as i have 3
points for it already, is there any potential defence for this?
Is it uncommon for me to call the number provided and maybe ask
them for help with the whole someone stopping at a pedestrian
refuge when not needing to? Or do i take this as it is?
Any help will be appreciated.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 4666--------------------------------------------------
Re: Totting up or potential ban?
DIR By: 666
Date: September 9, 2023, 1:36 am
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--- Quote from: unknowndriver link ---
>
> Hi all, coming back to this.
>
> I received a letter last Friday 1st September, been busy with
work and forgot to post here for advice. The date on the actual
letter is 25th August.
>
> With what im being charged, which in one sense is a lot better
than being charged with driving without due care as i have 3
points for it already, is there any potential defence for this?
Is it uncommon for me to call the number provided and maybe ask
them for help with the whole someone stopping at a pedestrian
refuge when not needing to? Or do i take this as it is?
>
> Any help will be appreciated.
>
--- End Quote ---
Give us a clue. What are you being charged with?
#Post#: 4669--------------------------------------------------
Re: Totting up or potential ban?
DIR By: guest46
Date: September 9, 2023, 3:31 am
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As above, without knowing the charge(s), no-one can say!
It reads like 'dismal' driving but that's not an offence so DWDC
seems most likely - the points for that will proably depend on
the court's perception of the seriousness and you'll likely be
at the upper end so 5-6 points most likely IMO (without knowing
the charges....)
That would take you to 8/9 so no ban.
But - give us the details! >:(
#Post#: 4684--------------------------------------------------
Re: Totting up or potential ban?
DIR By: slapdash
Date: September 9, 2023, 9:19 am
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According to the pdf posted it's a COFP for driving without
reasonable consideration.
#Post#: 4690--------------------------------------------------
Re: Totting up or potential ban?
DIR By: 666
Date: September 9, 2023, 10:45 am
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--- Quote from: slapdash link ---
>
> According to the pdf posted it's a COFP for driving without
reasonable consideration.
>
--- End Quote ---
Which is the same offence as careless driving, and the same
range of penalties applies.
"If a person drives a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road
or other public place without due care and attention, or without
reasonable consideration for other persons using the road or
place, he is guilty of an offence." [Road Traffic Act 1988, s3}
You have the option of accepting the fixed penalty (£100 and
three points), or defending the charge in court. In the absence
of a convincing defence, that will cost you a great deal more
(probably £1,000-ish) and possibly more than three points.
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