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#Post#: 49855--------------------------------------------------
Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the
Homeless
DIR By: El-Roi
Date: December 14, 2024, 7:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=428]H C Andersen[/member]
[member=2249]stamfordman[/member]
Below is the appeal that was sent
Appeal against PCN MW912094257 Issued 24th November 2024 -
Clover Street Chatham ME4 4DE
I am challenging the PCN on the grounds that I was engaged in
the exempt activity of unloading.
On the day in question I was delivering bulky food items to the
Emmaus Church Centre on Clover
Street ME4 4DE Chatham and therefore there was no contravention.
Specifically, I was delivering food which would be distributed
to homeless people through a scheme administered and led by the
church. I was acting in a personal capacity and it was my first
delivery.
I was taking a number of bulky food items for homeless people to
the Emmaus Church Centre and needed to park by the entrance to
do so. Some of the delivery was hot food and in consequence; I
had to contact specific volunteers within the building so that
this could be transferred to their own insulated containers.
I needed to go to the centre and back to the car twice to unload
all the food items.
I assume this were on either side of the PCN being issued -
there was a PCN on my vehicle when I finally returned to my
vehicle after my last trip from the ECC but was blown away in
the extreme weather. In any event, this doesn't bear upon my
circumstances or representations.
Please note that this food delivery donation will be a
semi-regular activity depending upon availability. I will be
making future trips to delivery our personal food donation to
The Emmaus Church Centre (TECC).
See attached links confirming the good cause carried out by the
ECC in which I was part of and making a delivery.
HTML https://emmaus.org.uk/about-us/
- Emmaus supports more than 850
people who have experienced homelessness. We provide a home,
training and work opportunities as part of a
HTML https://www.helpingthehomeless.org.uk/medway
I was delivering; a vehicle was essential; I parked as near to
the church as possible and the activity took only as long as
necessary in the circumstances to carry out this good cause; and
trust you'll agree the exemption applies. Consequently, the
exemption of delivering applies and the PCN should be cancelled.
I look forward to the early cancellation of this PCN.
Yours faithfully
#Post#: 49857--------------------------------------------------
Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the
Homeless
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: December 14, 2024, 8:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
"The entry signs in Clover Street clearly state that this is a
'Restricted Zone at any Time' and 'No Loading' on Monday to
Saturday 10:00am to 5pm. Non loading vehicles are not permitted
to park in this area at anytime. As your vehicle was parked in
Clover Street on 24/11/2024, your vehicle was correctly issued a
Penalty Charge Notice."
Am I reading the rejection notice correctly? Are the Council
trying to claim that Loading is allowed outside the restricted
hours but Unloading is never allowed?
#Post#: 49859--------------------------------------------------
Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the
Homeless
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: December 15, 2024, 2:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Not sure they understand that 24/11/2024 was a Sunday?
I don't often say you should carry on, but here I most
definitely would continue .
They keep talking about 'mitigation' and 'discretion' - as HCA
said, you had a statutory exemption. Muppets >:(
See what others say.
Next stage: NtO - your sister must authorise you to reply, or
she replies in her name.
#Post#: 49860--------------------------------------------------
Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the
Homeless
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: December 15, 2024, 2:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Although you have stated that you were taking a number of bulky
food items for homeless people to the Emmaus Church Centre and
needed to park by the entrance to do so as some of the delivery
was hot food and in consequence; I had to contact specific
volunteers within the building so that this could be transferred
to their own insulated containers, I am unfortunately unable to
accept this as mitigating circumstances because your vehicle was
parked in a 'Restricted Zone At Any Time' area. Your vehicle was
not exempt, therefore a Penalty Charge Notice was enforced by
Medway Council.
What an a**e. Disgraceful and brings the council into disrepute.
Carry on and let your sister make reps against the NTO.
Now that we know their, shall we say, ignorance of the law we
can tailor the formal reps accordingly.
The actual contravention as stated on the PCN:
Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours
Which means in law that there weren't any active 'mo loading'
restrictions at the time because if there were then the
mandatory contravention grounds would be.
02 - Parked or loading/unloading in a restricted street where
waiting and loading/unloading restrictions are in force.
And because delivering* is an exemption from a no waiting
restriction (NOT mitigation but an exemption) then your argument
must be considered.
But it wasn't, it was regarded as mitigation and to make things
worse for the council the wrong legal test was applied anyway!
*- delivering, collecting, unloading, loading are synonymous
expressions regarding this activity e.g. how could you load
something that hasn't been collected and if you unloaded without
delivering then the pavement would be knee-deep in goods!
It is irrelevant for your purposes whether the 'no waiting'
restriction was conveyed by yellow lines with a traffic sign,
yellow lines in a controlled zone or even no yellow lines in a
Restricted Parking zone, the restriction is the same: no
waiting. And unloading/delivering is permitted and an exempt
activity, not some wishy-washy mitigation.
#Post#: 49880--------------------------------------------------
Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the
Homeless
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: December 15, 2024, 6:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Medway 1 Homeless 0
But it's only half-time and manager team talk says it's a game
of two halves.
#Post#: 50029--------------------------------------------------
Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the
Homeless
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: December 15, 2024, 7:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Next time you visit the Church, might it be possible to ask
someone in the food for homeless team or the priest or pastor to
write a note thanking you or at least acknowledging your
donation of food at approx 16:19 on Sunday 24th Nov 2024?
Including food that had to be decanted into the Church's food
containers.
Whilst it might not be strictly necessary for a formal challenge
against the NTO, when it arrives, or a subsequent appeal to the
Adjudicator such a note or receipt might make it a little
easier.
They just don't seem to accept or understand that because you
were unloading, the food into the Church from your car, you were
engaged in an activity which is permitted on a Sunday (or any
other time outside the controlled hours on Mon to Sat). Possibly
because you used a car and not a van.
#Post#: 51068--------------------------------------------------
Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the
Homeless
DIR By: El-Roi
Date: December 26, 2024, 4:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Enceladus link ---
>
> Next time you visit the Church, might it be possible to ask
someone in the food for homeless team or the priest or pastor to
write a note thanking you or at least acknowledging your
donation of food at approx 16:19 on Sunday 24th Nov 2024?
Including food that had to be decanted into the Church's food
containers.
>
> Whilst it might not be strictly necessary for a formal
challenge against the NTO, when it arrives, or a subsequent
appeal to the Adjudicator such a note or receipt might make it a
little easier.
>
> They just don't seem to accept or understand that because you
were unloading, the food into the Church from your car, you were
engaged in an activity which is permitted on a Sunday (or any
other time outside the controlled hours on Mon to Sat). Possibly
because you used a car and not a van.
>
--- End Quote ---
"Non loading vehicles are not permitted to park in this area at
anytime She seems to be inferring that the type of
vehicle might also be a contributing factor i.e. - A car as
opposed to a van. They fail to take into consideration the sign
that Sunday is exempt. It is like they cannot interpret / see
the sign correctly. Or the week is Monday to Saturday and Sunday
doesn't exist.
2As per Medway Council’s Parking Enforcement Policy, in a Zero
Tolerance area, no observation period is required however I can
confirm that the Civil Enforcement Officer witnessed no activity
around the vehicle therefore the ticket was issued correctly. If
you are loading bulky items you will not stand by your car and
it will magically get to where it is to be delivered.
To be honest not sure if I will go there again because of this
PCN and the rejection. this might turn out to be a very
expensive donation. That was my first trip / donation. I don't
know the people who are in charge that will be in a position to
do a letter and they might be reluctant that I have only been
there once and asking them a favour to write a letter is
embarrassing. Also they might not want to put anything down on
paper. I don't know what their policy is.
It means anytime I go there to deliver food I am going to get a
PCN and the council will not understand if it is outside the
restriction hours or not or whether it is Sunday. I don't have
that type of money in addition to the time and money spent
making the donation. It's really sad.
What are my chance of success without a letter /note from the
centre?
I just need to know as the 14 days discount period is up
tomorrow before midnight or the day after.
#Post#: 51070--------------------------------------------------
Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the
Homeless
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: December 26, 2024, 5:35 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Reading this thread it is clear that your case for cancellation
of the PCN is very strong.
You need to be aware that councils ruthlessly game the system to
maximise the cash flow. One of the ways they do this is to
refuse virtually all informal reps, knowing that if they do
this, over 95% of people then cough-up the money.
Representations against Notices to Owner, the next stage, are
looked at a bit more closely because at this stage the discount
option has gone, and they know that if they refuse these, the
appellant will take them to adjudication, because the penalty
remains the same and there are no additional costs. Many
councils even re-offer the discount at the NtO stage, but never
publish this. A council has costs for an adjudication, being the
fee, and also the task of preparing an evidence pack for the
adjudication. The appellant has no fee to pay, just the PCN
penalty if the case is lost.
Of course it is the vehicle owner as per the V5 Registration
Certificate for the car that has responsibility for paying or
appealing a PCN, so whether to proceed further now is their
decision.
#Post#: 51094--------------------------------------------------
Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the
Homeless
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: December 27, 2024, 9:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: El-Roi link ---
>
> '''''''''''''''''''''
> "Non loading vehicles are not permitted to park in this area
at anytime She seems to be inferring that the type of
vehicle might also be a contributing factor i.e. - A car as
opposed to a van. They fail to take into consideration the sign
that Sunday is exempt. It is like they cannot interpret / see
the sign correctly. Or the week is Monday to Saturday and Sunday
doesn't exist.
> 2As per Medway Council’s Parking Enforcement Policy, in a Zero
Tolerance area, no observation period is required however I can
confirm that the Civil Enforcement Officer witnessed no activity
around the vehicle therefore the ticket was issued correctly. If
you are loading bulky items you will not stand by your car and
it will magically get to where it is to be delivered.
>
> To be honest not sure if I will go there again because of this
PCN and the rejection. this might turn out to be a very
expensive donation. That was my first trip / donation. I don't
know the people who are in charge that will be in a position to
do a letter and they might be reluctant that I have only been
there once and asking them a favour to write a letter is
embarrassing. Also they might not want to put anything down on
paper. I don't know what their policy is.
>
> It means anytime I go there to deliver food I am going to get
a PCN and the council will not understand if it is outside the
restriction hours or not or whether it is Sunday. I don't have
that type of money in addition to the time and money spent
making the donation. It's really sad.
>
>
> What are my chance of success without a letter /note from the
centre?
>
> I just need to know as the 14 days discount period is up
tomorrow before midnight or the day after.
>
--- End Quote ---
"Non loading vehicles are not permitted to park in this area at
anytime". That's the prohibition conveyed by the Double Yellow
Lines painted on the carriageway. The DYLs apply 24x365.
However stopping solely to load or unload is permitted outside
of the restricted hours of Monday to Saturday 10:00am to 5pm and
permitted all day on Sunday as stated on the time-plate on the
sign. The 'No Loading' restriction is only part time.
I agree, the Notice of Rejection does read as if only purpose
built vans are allowed to load/unload. Or they are just ignoring
the fact it was a Sunday.
You were stopped to unload a food delivery on a Sunday, a
delivery that had additionally to be decanted into the thermos
containers used by the church's kitchen, so provided that's all
you were doing then it was permitted.
So I would fight this all the way as it is plainly unjust and
justice should prevail.
It's not entirely necessary to get something in writing from the
church. However doing so might strengthen your hand and make
things easier with the Adjudicator. The Adjudicator will make a
judgement based on the balance of probability. You being a
credible witness should be enough.
If you prevail with the Adjudicator then you will have to pay
zero. If the Adjudicator doesn't buy your story then the bill
will be £70. BTW I don't agree with the double or quits, my
opinion is that the penalty should be consistent and national,
but such is what Parliament decided.
#Post#: 51204--------------------------------------------------
Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the
Homeless
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: December 28, 2024, 11:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I would certainly go on with this. The exemption is there for
this kind of situation. And they wouldn't want a story about a
heartless authority penalising a person delivering food to the
homeless to appear in the local paper...
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