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#Post#: 48618--------------------------------------------------
TFL Bus Lane - 9 Seater (8 passengers)
DIR By: mothepro
Date: December 6, 2024, 7:17 am
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Hi All,
I received a PCN from TFL for driving in a Bus Lane. My vehicle
is a 9 seater - 8 passengers plus the driver. I was under the
assumption that that qualifies the vehicle to go into a Bus
Lane. I had read on the London Assembley that this was the case
- see here
HTML https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/hospital-mini-buses
Bus lanes may be used by all vehicles classed as a bus under the
terms of the Traffic Signs Regulations & General Directions 2002
(TSRGD). The TSRGD classes a bus as any motor vehicle
'constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers
(exclusive of the driver)'. Therefore, any vehicles with 9 seats
or more are permitted to travel within a bus lane.
I appealed to TFL on the 30th October attaching the logbook and
writing as follows:
This vehicle is a 9 seater and as such it legally entitled to
drive in a bus lane. Please see the link here from the London
Assembly confirming this point.
HTML https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/hospital-mini-buses<br
/>I attach a copy of the vehicles logbook confirming that it is
indeed a 9 seater. Please can you confirm this PCN is being
cancelled. Thank you
TFL replied in a letter dated 22nd November saying that the
regulations require a vehicle to be constructed or adapted to
carry more than 8 passengers. This means that the vehicle must
be a 10 seater. TFL allowed the discounted fee to remain at £80
however by the time I received the letter and got to log on
today, it has gone up to £160.
I am attaching a copy of the PCN and TFL's response below.
UPDATE: I am not sure if the link is working at the bottom, the
link is also here
HTML https://imgur.com/a/Es10mIo
I have a few questions.
1. Is the meaning of the Regulation to require a vehicle to be a
10 seater, or a 9 seater. I can see both ways as being the
intended regulation. Certainly the London Assembly have taken
those exact words and understood them to mean a 9 seater vehicle
is classed as a bus.
2. If TFL are correct, does it help me in any way that I relied
on the information from the London Assembly? Could I use that as
a defense or alternatively complain to the London Assembly?
3. Although TFL may perhaps be correct, they have failed to
address the support that I used from the London Assembly as my
representations. Does this constitute a failure to consider
representations?
4. As far as I understand, TFL would be required to give me 14
days at the discounted level because I appealed to them in time.
Would that date be 14 days from the date on their letter or 14
days from date of service of their letter? Today is day 15 and
it is already at £160.
5. TFL allowed the discounted charge however they made no
mention in their letter about any cut off period for that. All
they note is that if not paid, an enforcement notice will be
provided giving me a further 28 days and if that is not dealt
with, a CC will be issued at which point it will go up to 50%
more than the original amount. Does this lack of notification
about a timeframe at which point the discount will expire
constitute a failure on TFL's behalf?
Thank you very much
Mo
HTML [img]http://
HTML https://imgur.com/a/Es10mIo
HTML https://imgur.com/a/Es10mIo[/img]
#Post#: 48647--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Bus Lane - 9 Seater (8 passengers)
DIR By: baroudeur
Date: December 6, 2024, 10:27 am
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Construction & Use regulations define a bus as
...."constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers
(exclusive of the driver)"
Driver and more than eight passengers equals more than nine
people and requires Category D driving licence
Your vehicle is a car not a bus.
#Post#: 48659--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Bus Lane - 9 Seater (8 passengers)
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: December 6, 2024, 11:24 am
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Welcome. I would wait for the Enforcement Notice and I am more
than happy to draft and assist from this stage.
#Post#: 51748--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Bus Lane - 9 Seater (8 passengers)
DIR By: mothepro
Date: January 3, 2025, 6:38 am
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--- Quote from: Hippocrates link ---
>
> Welcome. I would wait for the Enforcement Notice and I am more
than happy to draft and assist from this stage.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hi,
I have now received the enforcement. Would you be able to assist
with a draft for an appeal?
HTML https://freeimage.host/i/2SQdGqP
HTML https://freeimage.host/i/2SQd1LB
Many thanks
Mo
#Post#: 51750--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Bus Lane - 9 Seater (8 passengers)
DIR By: ManxTom
Date: January 3, 2025, 7:18 am
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Duplicate post
#Post#: 51751--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Bus Lane - 9 Seater (8 passengers)
DIR By: ManxTom
Date: January 3, 2025, 7:24 am
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Duplicate post
#Post#: 51752--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Bus Lane - 9 Seater (8 passengers)
DIR By: ManxTom
Date: January 3, 2025, 7:28 am
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--- Quote from: mothepro link ---
>
> .. My vehicle is a 9 seater - 8 passengers plus the driver. I
was under the assumption that that qualifies the vehicle to go
into a Bus Lane. I had read on the London Assembley that this
was the case - see here
HTML https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/hospital-mini-buses
>
> Bus lanes may be used by all vehicles classed as a bus under
the terms of the Traffic Signs Regulations & General Directions
2002 (TSRGD). The TSRGD classes a bus as any motor vehicle
'constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers
(exclusive of the driver)'. Therefore, any vehicles with 9 seats
or more are permitted to travel within a bus lane.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
[member=771]mothepro[/member] - if you think about it for a
moment, what London Assembly have said there makes no sense
whatsoever.
If a vehicle has to be able "to carry more than 8 passengers
(exclusive of the driver)" then that means that it needs a
minimum of at least 10 seats (for at least 9 passengers plus the
driver) and not 9. If they had clarified their answer by adding
the word "passenger" after the number 9 in "9 seats or more"
that would have been unambiguous, but that isn't what they've
written.
I would certainly point out to London Assembly that their answer
to that question is at best misleading and at worst plain wrong.
Whether it would help you get off this PCN I don't know. (Is
TFL accountable to London Assembly?)
BTW - I note that the question the London Assembly was answering
seemed to come from a NHS transport office re hospital
transport. Is that what you are doing? If yes, then as a
retired NHS manager myself I'd suggest you get the hospital
trust involved and not deal with it yourself
#Post#: 51792--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Bus Lane - 9 Seater (8 passengers)
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: January 3, 2025, 2:21 pm
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If TFL are correct, does it help me in any way that I relied on
the information from the London Assembly? Could I use that as a
defense or alternatively complain to the London Assembly?
So you looked up the definition of a 'bus' on the London
Assembly site before you drove into the bus lane?
#Post#: 51796--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Bus Lane - 9 Seater (8 passengers)
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: January 3, 2025, 3:03 pm
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Reminds me of the time I was stopped by a policeman when driving
in a bus lane with him asking, "Are you a bus, sir?"
The regulation (or whatever) indeed looks like a failure of
plain English - it should say 'nine or more passengers' and to
spell it out 'excluding the driver'.
#Post#: 51971--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL Bus Lane - 9 Seater (8 passengers)
DIR By: mothepro
Date: January 5, 2025, 6:12 am
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--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> If TFL are correct, does it help me in any way that I relied
on the information from the London Assembly? Could I use that as
a defense or alternatively complain to the London Assembly?
>
> So you looked up the definition of a 'bus' on the London
Assembly site before you drove into the bus lane?
>
--- End Quote ---
Not sure if there is slight sarcasm going on here, but just to
explain the mindset here.
Most large cars are 7-8 seaters. 9 seater cars are more rare. As
such, there can be confusion as to what their status is. As an
example, back in 2014 I was stopped by police whilst driving a 9
seater vehicle and issued a ticket for driving not in accordance
with my license. They stated that I was only allowed to drive a
vehicle with 8 seats in total, based on Category B
Category B - Motor vehicles with a Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM)
not exceeding 3500kg and designed and constructed for the
carriage of no more than eight passenger seats, with a trailer
up to 750kg. (If trailer is over 750kg, the combination MAM must
not exceed 3500kg. **) (minimum age 17*).
As you will appreciate, that is incorrect and actually enables a
vehicle with 8 seats plus another for the driver. It took me
months to persuade the police to drop the charges, even though I
had an email from the DVLA specifically confirming this point.
Additionally, a vehicle with 9+ seats is eligible for a 100%
discount of the congestion charge. So it is not that ridiculous
to assume that there may be some difference with the bus lane
regulations for a 9 seater vehicle, and therefore yes, I did
look up online and come across the London Assembly guidance
prior to going into the Bus Lane.
Regards
Mo
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