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#Post#: 48621--------------------------------------------------
Re: *Split from hijacked thread* - Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus
Gate 33E
DIR By: Bustagate
Date: December 6, 2024, 7:46 am
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I don't, but I have prepared an appeal for a relative against a
PCN issued in respect of Camrose Avenue eastbound. My first post
and some of the second post derived from the material in that
appeal. In the second post I added the bit about the history of
bus gates as it explains how they arose (literally, out of the
road!). See the photo below of the Cambridge bus gate in 2008.
I'm not in the business of providing advice; I just wished to
make available to others material which they may find helpful.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 48672--------------------------------------------------
Re: *Split from hijacked thread* - Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus
Gate 33E
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: December 6, 2024, 12:25 pm
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May I suggest you contact me please to assist? In know the
pitfalls - for both parties.
#Post#: 48885--------------------------------------------------
Re: *Split from hijacked thread* - Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus
Gate 33E
DIR By: Bustagate
Date: December 8, 2024, 8:36 am
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Those receiving PCNs in respect of Camrose Avenue may wish to
point out the absence of a sign such as that shown below, which
is on Emmanuel Road, Cambridge.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 48910--------------------------------------------------
Re: *Split from hijacked thread* - Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus
Gate 33E
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: December 8, 2024, 12:35 pm
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--- Quote from: Bustagate link ---
>
> Those receiving PCNs in respect of Camrose Avenue may wish to
point out the absence of a sign such as that shown below, which
is on Emmanuel Road, Cambridge.
>
--- End Quote ---
What exactly is your point? Meanwhile, the result of one of my
efforts and I would not mention it before any hearing.:
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/harrow-camrose-ave-bus-gate-33e-pcn-33e-using-restricted-to-certain-vehicles-bus/msg38148/#msg38148
My offer still stands. Winning cases is based on knowledge
(hard-earned) and strategy.
My colleague and friend was also successful in this case:
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/camrose-avenue-harrow-bus-gate/msg3595/#msg3595
I really do advise you do not reveal your hand whatever stage
you are at with your relative's PCN.
It sounds as if you want to Do It My Way. Good luck.
#Post#: 48920--------------------------------------------------
Re: *Split from hijacked thread* - Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus
Gate 33E
DIR By: Bustagate
Date: December 8, 2024, 2:43 pm
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I wish to assist those who are caught on Camrose Avenue by
showing how other local authorities (in this case Cambridge)
provide appropriate signage which advises motorists where to go
to avoid being caught. Cambridge follows Government advice
HTML https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bus-lane-and-moving-traffic-enforcement-outside-london/traffic-management-act-2004-statutory-guidance-for-local-authorities-outside-london-on-civil-enforcement-of-bus-lane-and-moving-traffic-contravention
--- Quote ---
> Local authorities should aim to increase compliance with bus
lane and moving traffic regulations through clear, well
designed, legal, and enforced controls including clear traffic
signing which can readily be understood from a moving vehicle.
--- End Quote ---
The sign which Cambridge uses to tell motorists where to go on
Emmanuel Road is the fifth in a crescendo of warnings, all of
which are subject to a 20 mph speed limit. They ensure that
motorists are on guard and ready to react. Cambridge truly
enters into the spirit of the Government advice to provide
"clear traffic signing which can readily be understood from a
moving vehicle". I consider that Cambridge's signage provides a
benchmark against which adjudicators can assess the adequacy of
Harrow's on Camrose Avenue.
It is a principle of English law that penalties for infractions
of regulations have to be proportionate to the harm which the
infraction causes. In the context of licensing transport
operators, The Traffic Commissioners' Statutory document 10:
principles of decision making & the concept of proportionality
HTML https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/traffic-commissioners-the-principles-of-decision-making-and-the-concept-of-proportionality-november-2018/statutory-document-10-principles-of-decision-making-the-concept-of-proportionality<br
/>sets it out thus:
--- Quote ---
> In essence, the legal principle of proportionality requires a
traffic commissioner when exercising a statutory function, to
make decisions which are commensurate with the circumstances of
each individual case and the purposes of the legislation...
--- End Quote ---
Adjudicators have to consider the purpose of The Harrow (Bus
Priority) Traffic Order 2011
HTML https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/traffic_management_order_5/response/365762/attach/2/Traffic.<br
/>Despite its title, the history of Camrose Avenue
HTML https://moderngov.harrow.gov.uk/documents/s12418/Camrose
Ave
Width Restriction - CCTV Enforcement and Petition for Bus Gate
Enforcement.pdf shows that the scheme is in fact concerned with
stopping HGVs from using Camrose Avenue as a through route.
When the scheme was created in the 1980s, physical restriction
by width was the only practicable means of keeping out HGVs. But
it also kept out buses. The bus-only routes were created so that
buses could bypass the width restrictions. That they do not
serve as a bus-priority scheme is readily apparent: buses sit
behind the cars and vans queueing for the width restriction.
When they get close to the widening before the width
restriction, they can go straight to the bus stop. But then they
have to give way to vehicles emerging from the chicane after the
width restriction.
Today, councils look up the type of vehicle from its number
plate. Harrow uses this (at least I assume that it does) to
enforce emissions restrictions and TfL's Safer HGV zone
HTML https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/deliveries-in-london/delivering-safely/safer-lorry-scheme.<br
/>So why not sweep away the physical width restriction and the
chicane and just look up the vehicle type from the CCTV camera?
Such an approach would lead to PCNs only being issued to HGVs,
which achieves the purpose of the scheme. It would also help
improve the reliability of bus journeys, as buses would no
longer have to sit in the queue of vehicles for the width
restriction. So it would be a WIN, WIN.
It would also avoid the embarrassment (if Harrow is capable of
being embarrassed) that Harrow will face when they have to
explain why half of the PCNs issued on Camrose Avenue relate to
journeys between 6 p.m. and 6 a.m with one eighth of all PCNs
being issued during the early hours of the morning when no buses
are running.
#Post#: 48927--------------------------------------------------
Re: *Split from hijacked thread* - Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus
Gate 33E
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: December 8, 2024, 4:02 pm
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--- Quote from: Bustagate link ---
>
> It is a principle of English law that penalties for
infractions of regulations have to be proportionate to the harm
which the infraction causes.
>
--- End Quote ---
Even if your assertion is correct (stick a pin in that), what
does that have to do with the price of fish?
#Post#: 48944--------------------------------------------------
Re: *Split from hijacked thread* - Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus
Gate 33E
DIR By: 666
Date: December 9, 2024, 1:47 am
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--- Quote from: Bustagate link ---
>
>
>
> Today, councils look up the type of vehicle from its number
plate. Harrow uses this (at least I assume that it does) to
enforce emissions restrictions and TfL's
[url=
HTML https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/deliveries-in-london/delivering-safely/safer-lorry-scheme]Safer<br
/>HGV zone[/url[/b]][/b].
>
>
--- End Quote ---
It doesn't. Emissions are enforced by TfL, and "safer lorries"
by the police and DVLA.
#Post#: 48948--------------------------------------------------
Re: *Split from hijacked thread* - Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus
Gate 33E
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: December 9, 2024, 2:24 am
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I am out.
#Post#: 48959--------------------------------------------------
Re: *Split from hijacked thread* - Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus
Gate 33E
DIR By: Bustagate
Date: December 9, 2024, 3:56 am
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I did wonder whether emissions regulations and Safer HGV zones
were enforced by TfL. That is why I expressed my uncertainty in
parentheses. Neighbouring Hillingdon Council has been enforcing
HGV restrictions since 2015
HTML https://professionalsecurity.co.uk/news/transport/cctv-enforces-hgv-weight-restrictions/<br
/>using look-up of the vehicle class from CCTV. Oxford has a
zero-emission zone which I presume it enforces using look-up
from CCTV.
I have attached below images of more of Cambridge's signs which
I consider do provide "clear traffic signing which can readily
be understood from a moving vehicle". If Cambridge can do it, so
can Harrow. At the very least, Cambridge's signage provides a
benchmark which can be put before adjudicators as evidence of
the inadequacy of Harrow's signage. For those issued PCNs at
night, so can the disproportionate number of PCNs issued at
Camrose Avenue during the hours of darkness.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 49098--------------------------------------------------
Re: *Split from hijacked thread* - Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus
Gate 33E
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: December 9, 2024, 2:26 pm
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[member=3617]Bustagate[/member] I am back in. As this is a Flame
Pit thread, The Bull in a China Shop comes to mind. Your posts
are far too emotive, off the mark and Gawd help your relative if
your efforts at submissions are the same at the Tribunal. If
you win, I will stand corrected.
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