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#Post#: 4682--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and
doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
DIR By: jacoscar
Date: September 9, 2023, 8:51 am
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Remaining pages
HTML https://imgur.com/a/aE8GppU
#Post#: 4799--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and
doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: September 10, 2023, 2:17 pm
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Draft reps:
[indent]
Dear Warwickshire County Council,
In the first instance I rely on my informal representations, as
I sought to explain there I made a concerted and repeated effort
to pay the appropriate parking charge and it is the inadequacy
of the council's systems that prevented me from doing so.
To expand on that, I had an appointment at 8am with the police
to give a statement about a crime; I parked in front of the
police station at about 7:55 and attempted to pay for parking;
payment for parking is required only 8am-6pm. I normally pay by
app (RingGo), I hoped I could pay for 1 hour and that it would
start rolling at 8am, so I would be covered until 9am. However,
when I attempted it, the app said "parking is currently free"
and it didn't let me.
Before entering the police station to give my statement, I tried
again to pay (around 8:05am) and the officer said to do it
outside because they don't get good signal inside, the app still
didn't let me pay ("parking is currently free"). Midway through
my appointment the officer reminded me about the parking and
suggested I went outside to try and pay again; it still didn't
let me ("parking is currently free"), for peace of mind I took a
screen recording on my phone which has been placed at (link)
I didn't know at the time (around 8:34), but the penalty charge
had already been issued. I only found out at around 9am that
there was a PCN on the windscreen (issued at 8:20).
Most authorities across the country provide both pay & display
and telephone payment facilities that allow payment prior to the
controlled hours, because for instance if one parks at 6 am it
would be absurd to require someone to hang around at the parking
place until 8 am in order to effect payment at that time.
Indeed, there are many areas with daytime charge and pay &
display machines where one can buy a pay and display ticket the
night before with a start time of 8 am (or whenever the charges
begin), so in this instance the root cause of the issue is the
inadequacy of the council's parking systems.
All that being said, I draw your attention to The Warwickshire
County Council (District of Warwick) (Civil Enforcement Area)
(Waiting Restrictions, On Street Parking Places and Residents
Parking) (Consolidation) Order 2017 which provides at article
13(4) that:
[indent]
Any person who wilfully avoids or seeks to avoid or assists in
avoiding the payment of the specified charge for parking shall
be guilty of contravening this Order.
[/indent]
Quite plainly the council has no hope of showing that I avoided
or sought to avoid making payment, on the contrary I made
repeated efforts to effect payment and it is the council's use
of a payment system that is not fit for purpose that thwarted
those attempts. While it is true that usually such
contraventions do not include an element of mens rea, you have
chosen to draft the traffic order in such a manner that an
element of intent is required for a contravention to occur.
Applying the principle of contra proferentem, the council cannot
avoid the consequences of the wording it chose when drafting the
traffic order.
As I did not wilfully avoid or seek to avoid payment, I am not
guilty of contravening your traffic order, so the penalty charge
notice must be cancelled.
Yours faithfully
[/indent]
I will send you a link to the video to put into the
representation, do not click on that link. The reason is that if
the view count is zero by the time you get a notice of
rejection, we then have proof that they've failed to consider
all of the supporting evidence submitted, which is a procedural
impropriety. If the notice of rejection says they've carefully
considered the representations, we've also got them for lying.
Lastly don't use the text box on the council website for the
representation, rather put the representation in the PDF and in
the text box where they want you to write the representation,
just say something like "see attached PDF".
#Post#: 5044--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and
doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
DIR By: jacoscar
Date: September 13, 2023, 3:24 am
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Thank you very much you're a star!. I have just sent the
representation and I haven't opened the link
#Post#: 5877--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and
doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
DIR By: jacoscar
Date: September 23, 2023, 8:03 am
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I have just received a notice of rejection
It seems like they are still repeating themselves
HTML https://imgur.com/a/4NaQJp2
Did they watch the video?
#Post#: 5893--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and
doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: September 23, 2023, 10:08 am
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OP, let's get back to what I consider is the key issue.
I don't think you would succeed with the 'did not wilfully' for
the very reason that there are alternative payment methods which
you positively chose not to use. Therefore, if there was a
requirement to pay then you were at fault.But include it if you
wish, but I would do so after the following argument.
I've put this in bold because you posted:
I tried again to pay (around 8:05am) and the officer said to do
it outside because they don't get good signal inside, the app
still didn't let me pay ("parking is currently free"). Midway
through my appointment the officer reminded me about the parking
and suggested I went outside to try and pay again; it still
didn't let me ("parking is currently free"), for peace of mind I
took a screen recording on my phone and I also mentioned this to
the police officer (which said: "if you took a screenshot you'll
probably be fine"); I didn't know at the time (around 8:34).
The issue is therefore that whereas on the one hand the sign
required payment you have evidence from their service provider
that payment was not required. The authority have wilfully
missed this point and banged on about alternative methods. But
these only apply IF there is a requirement to pay.
Just as it's not a motorist's task to traipse the streets
double-checking whether there are signs which contradict the one
where they've parked then IMO the same applies here.
Your video is so rapid that I can't stop it at each frame, but
you say that RingGo gave the consistent message of parking is
free at just before 8am, approx. 8.05 and again at 8.34.
But they ignored this.
I suspect you'll appeal, in which case throw in procedural
impropriety. The NOR fails to notify you of the following
mandatory elements:
The adjudicator's power to accept an appeal submitted late;
The grounds on which costs may be awarded against either party.
Referring you to a telephone number or a website is b******s
IMO. If this was acceptable, then they shouldn't feel compelled
to include anything other than a website address. But they do,
because it's the law.
It's not their right to decide on the importance of the various
elements of the mandatory information and which parts should or
should not be included in a NOR, parliament has done this for
them.
#Post#: 5957--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and
doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: September 24, 2023, 10:30 am
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Well they've failed to consider all the evidence as they haven't
watched the video, which still has a count view of zero:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/KYyl32m.png
Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal? I think we
have them dead to rights.
#Post#: 5999--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and
doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: September 24, 2023, 5:47 pm
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I take HCA'a point that the message (parking is free) is
critical and indeed satisfies my concern on why you didn't pay
with any alternative means.
If an official provider that is council approved is consistently
saying parking is free, why would anyone even approach the
machine?
I don't agree that the willful avoidance of payment has little
chance, their words require it to be willful and you have decent
proof that you tried to pay
#Post#: 6008--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and
doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
DIR By: jacoscar
Date: September 25, 2023, 2:43 am
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--- Quote from: cp8759 link ---
>
> Well they've failed to consider all the evidence as they
haven't watched the video, which still has a count view of zero:
>
>
HTML https://i.imgur.com/KYyl32m.png
>
> Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal? I think we
have them dead to rights.
>
--- End Quote ---
yes, please!
#Post#: 8895--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and
doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 1, 2023, 7:36 am
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Outcome
HTML https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1zqyrzzo0-rJKxwIJWXk9wuJPQeJAohox,<br
/>we can't win them all unfortunately.
#Post#: 8913--------------------------------------------------
Re: Parking app claims "parking is currently free" and
doesn't let me pay; I got a fine and they refuse to cancel it
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 1, 2023, 1:30 pm
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Everything I read there seems, essentially, intended to put Mr
Murray-Smith "in his place". Is this an unbiased adjudication ?
I don't think so. Absolutely nothing was said about being unable
to pay to park before the pay-to-park hours commenced; a major
omission, surely ?
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