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#Post#: 48388--------------------------------------------------
PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
DIR By: badrav
Date: December 5, 2024, 12:38 am
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I was looking for some advice regarding the following situation
if you could help please.
The driver of the car on 27/09/2024 it seems entered the car
park to turn the car around and promptly left.
The letter which has been received, seems an escalation and has
been recieved a fair while from the date shown and talks about
parking breach which nobody was aware of.
I have the V5, as a registered keeper
Any help regarding contesting this would be greatly appreciated.
Should the company be contacted regarding missed/delayed
communication what would be the best way to reply?
If any more information is required please let me know.
HTML https://imgur.com/a/2de4bZ0
I will attach other pictures asap
#Post#: 48433--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
DIR By: b789
Date: December 5, 2024, 7:05 am
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Are you saying the you do not have or did not receive the
original postal Notice to Keeper (NtK)?
If you have it, we need to see that (both sides) leaving all
dates and times visible. Any reminder is of little use in trying
to formulate a response.
#Post#: 48481--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
DIR By: Dave65
Date: December 5, 2024, 10:40 am
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So, how long was the vehicle in this car park?
Can you get photos of the signage?
#Post#: 48552--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
DIR By: badrav
Date: December 6, 2024, 12:27 am
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[member=26]b789[/member] Thanks, yes unfortunately not sure why
but only recieved this reminder. Could be lost in the post or
otherwise. Should I call them and ask them to resend/email?
[member=1555]Dave65[/member] Thanks, wouldve been in for less
the 5,; Attached the signage
HTML https://imgur.com/a/eY4UJIx
#Post#: 48563--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
DIR By: Dave65
Date: December 6, 2024, 4:00 am
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So, this could be a case of "Unforbidden Signage" and offer no
contract to park.
#Post#: 48564--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: December 6, 2024, 4:05 am
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"Forbidding signage" - i.e. signage that does not offer any
consideration. The sign you have shown us (other than the
instructions for registration) looks like the entrance sign,
saying on it "See car park signs for terms and conditions" - can
you show us one of those terms and conditions signs please?
#Post#: 48733--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
DIR By: badrav
Date: December 7, 2024, 5:20 am
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Thanks [member=1555]Dave65[/member] not sure what unforbidden
signange is
Thanks [member=103]DWMB2[/member] ive been to the site again and
this is all the signage displayed atm
HTML https://imgur.com/a/EVAfGgf
Just got this 🤦‍♂️
HTML https://imgur.com/a/AfaW4yC
#Post#: 48742--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
DIR By: b789
Date: December 7, 2024, 5:59 am
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We don't need to know about any dent recovery letters and you
can safely ignore them. Use them as kindling. They are useless
and powerless to do anything. Ignore them. Never, ever, ever,
communicate with a useless debt collector.
The sign you've shown primarily offers terms for authorised
parking and does not create a clear 'contractual offer' to the
driver unless they meet specific conditions. The sign states
that only "parishioners and authorised visitors" who register
their vehicle on a touchscreen inside the premises are eligible
to park.
This implies that no offer is being made to the general public
for parking. Instead, it restricts the premises to authorised
users only. The sign explicitly states, "General public parking
is not permitted" which further supports that it is not an
invitation to enter into a parking contract for anyone other
than authorised users.
The phrase "If you breach any of these terms, you will be liable
to a parking charge of up to £100" implies that any unauthorised
parking constitutes a breach, not acceptance of a contract. This
approach leans more towards a prohibitive notice rather than an
offer capable of forming a contractual relationship.
The sign does not clearly state any terms that would apply to
someone who merely enters the premises but does not park (e.g.,
someone turning around). A contract requires that terms are
clearly communicated and capable of being accepted by conduct.
Here, the "driver turning around" scenario does not align with
the parking terms specified.
For a contract to be valid, it must offer terms that are capable
of acceptance. The sign's focus on "Authorised Parking Only"
does not provide an offer to unauthorised users but rather seeks
to exclude them.
This sign does not appear to offer a contractual relationship to
unauthorised drivers (e.g., those who enter and immediately
leave, or turn around). Instead, it serves as a prohibitive
notice designed to restrict access to authorised users only. As
such, no contract could reasonably have been formed between the
driver and Civil Enforcement Ltd in this case.
As you have the PCN number, you could go onto the CEL website as
though to appeal and see what, if any, evidential photos they
have. Make sure you download any images. You need to find out
how much time the vehicle was actually on the premises because
there are other appeal points that can be made, such as
"consideration" and "grace" periods.
You say the driver simply entered, turned around and left. If
they simply entered and turned around and then immediately left,
CEL will be put to strict proof that that was not the case.
Send the following as a formal complaint to CEL (check their
complaints procedure on their website):
--- Quote ---
> Subject: Request for Clarification and Re-Issuance of Notice
to Keeper (NtK)
>
> [Keeper's Name]
> [Keeper's Address]
> [Date]
>
> To:
> Civil Enforcement Ltd
> [Address - check CEL's correspondence or website for their
contact details]
>
> Re: Parking Charge Notice Reminder for PCN [pcn number]
>
> Dear Civil Enforcement Ltd,
>
> I am writing regarding a reminder letter I received for an
alleged parking contravention at [Location Name] on 27/09/2024.
I have not received the original Notice to Keeper (NtK) that
should have been sent to me, and therefore I am unable to
determine the nature of the alleged contravention.
>
> As the Keeper of the vehicle, I am entitled to receive all the
information necessary to understand the alleged breach. The
reminder letter fails to provide the details required to
establish:
>
> [indent]1. The exact alleged contravention.
> 2. Evidence supporting your claim, including any images or
proof of the vehicle's actions at the site.[/indent]
>
> From the limited information provided, I understand that the
driver of the vehicle on the date in question did not park but
merely entered the location to turn around and promptly exited.
The signage at the site, which I have reviewed, states:
>
> [indent]"Authorised Parking Only. Parishioners and authorised
visitors must obtain a parking permit by registering their full
correct vehicle registration on the touch screen located inside
the premises."[/indent]
>
> This wording implies that any alleged contravention applies to
vehicles that remain on-site without authorisation or proper
registration. The vehicle in question did not park or wait at
the location and therefore could not have breached these terms.
>
> In line with the BPA Code of Practice (version 9, applicable
at the time of the alleged incident), specifically Sections
21.4, 21.5, and 23.1, I require you to:
>
> [indent]• Provide a copy of the original NtK, which must
include all necessary details of the alleged contravention,
including time-stamped evidence of the vehicle's presence and
proof of any alleged terms breached.
> • Clarify the alleged contravention with full supporting
evidence.[/indent]
>
> Furthermore, I remind you that should you fail to provide
adequate evidence to support your claim, this matter will be
considered unresolved, and any further action by you or your
agents may be deemed unreasonable and vexatious.
>
> If I do not receive a satisfactory response within 14 days, I
will escalate this matter to the BPA and other relevant bodies
for further investigation.
>
> Please treat this correspondence as a formal complaint.
>
> Yours faithfully,
>
>
> [Keeper's Full Name]
> [Keeper's Contact Information]
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 48744--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
DIR By: badrav
Date: December 7, 2024, 6:09 am
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[member=26]b789[/member] Thanks so much, will do!
#Post#: 50298--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN from 'Civil Enforcement Ltd'
DIR By: badrav
Date: December 17, 2024, 7:03 pm
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[member=26]b789[/member]
@Dave765
Unfortunately rejected, it also seems the duration is somehow
wrong they have it as almost 50 minutes which im pretty sure is
wrong
If you could please let me know your thoughts
HTML https://imgur.com/a/Wkl08Nc
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