DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so ...
*****************************************************
#Post#: 53165--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
DIR By: SAZZA
Date: January 13, 2025, 9:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your help with this. I've now received a large
package from TfL in advance of the hearing and it looks like
they've covered pretty much everything so I'm losing hope of
fighting this. The only thing I still don't have is the date it
actually came into force (given I have Google Street View saying
it was still the old signs in July 2024). I have actually
stopped and warned many drivers of cars and vans, every time I
walk past the bay, as no one seems to be aware the signs have
changed. They must be making a fortune!
(I'm afraid the tech involved in uploading the video was a
little beyond me and my patience. Sorry).
#Post#: 53178--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: January 13, 2025, 11:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
We're specifically interested in the traffic order, so as a
minimum pl post this as well as their Case Summary.
#Post#: 53194--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
DIR By: SAZZA
Date: January 13, 2025, 12:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you so much for your patience with me! The Case Summary is
37 pages long! I've attached the first five pages which are the
most relevant (the rest is about TSRGD definition of Red Routes
and their argument there has been an Error of Law in the
Determination of the Panel's decision regarding Regulation 11
and why). If you want the whole lot, I can carry on scanning.
I attach the Traffic Order front page and the relevant page with
the parking bay asterisked.
I also attach two photographs they've sent me from the video
footage. There was a rubbish truck blocking the sign which I
have not yet referred to in my appeal but they mention in the
Case Summary that I should have got out the car to read the
signs.
I have also now had a response from the Traffic Order section
saying the signs came in to force in July 2024 (same as Google
Street View date) and that it was published in the London
Gazette in September 2023.
Feeling pessimistic.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 53196--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: January 13, 2025, 12:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks.
You posted:
I parked briefly in a loading/unloading bay on Tfl Red Route
[i]I have used several times to unload items to charity shop
next to it.[/i] (my emphasis)
TfL agree that despite the order coming into effect on 1 Dec. it
was not implemented in respect of this location until 'July
2024' when presumably the signs were changed.
Can you give us any idea of your 'several times' e.g. did you
use the bay between Dec. 2023 and July 2024 etc?
#Post#: 53201--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
DIR By: SAZZA
Date: January 13, 2025, 1:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I would have done although don't think I could give any
specific dates.
#Post#: 53210--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: January 13, 2025, 2:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
But you didn't use the bay between July and October?
OP, this is the essence of your appeal given that TfL officers
acknowledge ignoring the authority's order and not implementing
its provisions when it came into effect.
I can't tell you what to say, but if the facts fit....
I have used the bay since at least ***. I normally/only park
here in order to donate items to **** which is an adjacent
charity shop.
As can be seen in the attached GSV snapshots, in 2020,2021,2022
and July 2024(although TfL claim to have amended the sign in
July 2024) the restriction was: No Stopping except 10am-4pm
Loading, max. 20 minutes. I had therefore become familiar with
what I was permitted to do and not do.
As the adjudicator will see from TfL's evidence, in December
2023 Transport for London amended the restriction such that 'No
Stopping except loading 10am-4pm' became 'except 7pm-7am'. I can
only imagine that these changes, which created unsocial hours
exemptions, hardly pleased the adjacent shops.
I cannot recall how often I had used the bay prior to 2024, but
I can remember using it at least *** between December 2023 and
July/Aug 2024 without issue. Therefore, when I used it on 28
October I assumed that the restriction was the same.
But it wasn't. And, as can be seen, not by a marginal amount but
fundamentally.
While I accept that in principle a driver should always check
signs, I would ask the adjudicator to consider the event dates
in this case. Specifically, Transport for London amended the
restrictions which came into force on 1 December 2023 and yet
for reasons which have not been detailed, officers did not
implement these changes until July/August 2024. Therefore, I
(and every other motorist) had been parking in technical
contravention between 1 Dec. 2023 and July/Aug 2024. Had TfL
implemented the changed restrictions when they were obliged to
do, then the contravention on 28 October would not have
occurred. And if these changes had been brought into effect when
legally obliged and implemented with some changeover
leeway(given that the previous restriction was in effect for so
long) then it is likely that would not be facing a penalty from
October 2024.
I respectfully submit that TfL officers who disregarded their
duty to implement the amended order when it came into force
should not be allowed to pursue me for this penalty when they
decided to do so without, in my case, any prior warning.
Some thoughts!
But more info from you pl.
#Post#: 53213--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
DIR By: SAZZA
Date: January 13, 2025, 3:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you again. I definitely feel I can say I’ve
loaded/unloaded there between those dates. I’m not sure I trust
myself to be able stay all that correctly in front of the
solicitor. Do you know if I’m able to swap to a written appeal?
#Post#: 53223--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: January 13, 2025, 5:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
A hearing is fairly relaxed although strictly a judicial
proceeding. You may elect for a telephone or personal hearing.
It is unlikely that the authority would be present and would
rely solely on their written submissions - the evidence bundle
you've got.
You don't make speeches, you present your case in writing in
advance and the adjudicator may ask questions by way of
verification/clarification.
#Post#: 53243--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
DIR By: SAZZA
Date: January 14, 2025, 3:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you again. I will submit in advance. It's been a very very
long time since I attended one of these hearings and the process
has clearly changed. I really appreciate all your help.
#Post#: 56395--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL RED ROUTE LOADING BAY - when did they change the signs?
DIR By: SAZZA
Date: February 3, 2025, 11:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you so much for your help. We succeeded in our appeal and
I thought it would be useful to let you know the reasons given
by the Adjudicator.
1. The newer restriction came into force on 1 December 2023.
However, the sign plate did not reflect the most recent
restriction until after July 2024.
2. The newer sign plate was FACING THE ROAD (apparently these
signs should be perpendicular to the road so that the driver can
see them as they approach - only the yellow ones should be
facing the road). I thought this point would be particularly
useful for others to know.
3. Because of Point 2, our view of the sign was obscured by a
large high sided Authority refuse truck which was also in the
loading bay and we could, therefore, not see the sign.
*****************************************************
Page 3 of 4
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page