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#Post#: 47746--------------------------------------------------
Re: SABA demanding driver details after appeal – Paid at machine
– Parking PCN from Croydon University Hospital
DIR By: b789
Date: December 1, 2024, 11:52 am
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--- Quote from: RichardW link ---
>
> Their PCN doesn't appear to be POFA compliant (no invitation
to pay or name the driver).
>
--- End Quote ---
Not quite. They do state in their Notice to Keeper (NtK): "If
you were not the driver at the time, you should tell us the name
and current postal address of the driver and pass this notice to
them.[/I]" However they have not complied with PoFA paragraphs
9(2)(a) and 9(2)(e)(i).
SABA will certainly not concede this point but POPLA may, as
long as you can persuasively show them why. PoFA 9(2)(a) states:
--- Quote ---
> [i]The notice must—
>
> (a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was
parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;
--- End Quote ---
The NtK fails to specify a “period of parking,” instead
referencing a single timestamp, which does not satisfy Paragraph
9(2)(a).
Also, PoFA 9(2)(e)(i) states:
--- Quote ---
> The notice must—
>
> (e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the
driver and a current address for service for the driver and
invite the keeper—
>
> (i)to pay the unpaid parking charges;
--- End Quote ---
Conveniently, the POPLA assessors usually ignore the last three
words of para 9(2)(e). After all, they have to pander to their
paymasters. However, if it were to ever get as far as a hearing
in the county court, it would firm part of a valid defence that
the Keeper cannot be liable for the charge.
For now, I suggest responding to SABA with the following
derisory email:
--- Quote ---
> Dear SABA,
>
> Thank you for your email, which demonstrates either a
remarkable misunderstanding of the law or a deliberate attempt
at deceit. Your claim that “only the driver can appeal” is both
mendacious and blatantly false.
>
> If you genuinely believe I will fall for such a false
statement, I strongly suggest that someone in your organisation
with at least a vague understanding of the Protection of
Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) reviews this matter immediately. I
advise you to involve a responsible adult to ensure that SABA's
next steps don’t lead you further into the realm of legal
absurdity.
>
> Allow me to clarify, for your benefit:
>
> The Keeper is Entitled to Appeal:
>
> As the Notice to Keeper (NtK) was addressed to me as the
registered keeper of the vehicle, I am entitled to respond and
appeal. Your baseless demand that only the driver can appeal is
a transparent attempt to intimidate me into naming the driver,
which I am under no legal obligation to do as you are simply an
unregulated private parking company.
>
> Non-Compliance with PoFA:
>
> Your NtK lacks the mandatory "invitation" for the keeper to
pay as required by Paragraph 9(2)(e).
> The NtK also fails to specify a “period of parking”, instead
referencing a single timestamp, which does not satisfy Paragraph
9(2)(a).
>
> Evidence of Payment Already Provided:
>
> I have submitted irrefutable evidence that a valid ticket was
purchased using your suggested machine. The fact that your
systems, or your warden’s observations, failed to reflect this
is not my concern.
>
> Should you reject this appeal and issue a POPLA code, please
be aware that this will only serve to prove your intellectual
malnourishment as it will be your first step toward wasting
money on an independent assessor. Furthermore, should this
matter ever reach a county court hearing, you will have the
unenviable task of justifying your legally and factually
deficient claims to a judge. At that stage, I trust the court
will not look kindly upon your mendacious behaviour, nor will it
consider your actions “reasonable” under any measure.
>
> I suggest you reconsider your approach, as pursuing this
matter further risks not only your finances but also exposing
your practices to judicial scrutiny. As for your demand for the
driver’s details, I refer you to the succinct and entirely
appropriate response given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram
(1971).
>
> Yours faithfully,
>
> [Your Name]
> Registered Keeper
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 47760--------------------------------------------------
Re: SABA demanding driver details after appeal – Paid at machine
– Parking PCN from Croydon University Hospital
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: December 1, 2024, 12:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
With respect, PoFA does not require the creditor to offer nor
grant a keeper the right to appeal against the parking charge.
Para. 9 is quite clear.
But what PoFA does state is that a NTK must:
...
g)inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment
and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or
complaints that are available;
There is no mandatory appeal under PoFA(something which
long-overdue mandatory regs would resolve).
However, it is understood by government, approved operators and
their ATAs that the latter would put in place a (now single)
code of practice, compliance with which is a condition of
operators accessing DVLA keeper data. It is this Code which
requires creditors to offer 'arrangements for resolving
disputes' and states that the keeper may appeal to the creditor,
page 38 refers:
HTML https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/NEW%20Redesigned%20Documents/sectorsingleCodeofPractice.pdf
POPLA must consider this matter and IMO find for the keeper
because of the failure of the creditor to comply with this most
important part of the code.
So, how should you play this?
At present SABA hold the cards and would continue to do so until
you are in possession of a POPLA code*. Therefore, I would
simply respond by saying that you do not intend to name the
driver, that you require SABA to consider your appeal as
submitted and if rejected to issue a POPLA code.
*- in the little snippet of their response I don't see that your
failure to comply within their tome frame would lead to them
issuing a POPLA code, but if it does then post their complete
reply because perhaps your best tactic would be simply to
ignore.
#Post#: 47765--------------------------------------------------
Re: SABA demanding driver details after appeal – Paid at machine
– Parking PCN from Croydon University Hospital
DIR By: mickR
Date: December 1, 2024, 1:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> With respect, PoFA does not require the creditor to offer nor
grant a keeper the right to appeal against the parking charge.
Para. 9 is quite clear.
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm not sure anyone said they did.
[member=26]b789[/member] said...
--- Quote ---
> Your NtK lacks the mandatory "invitation" for the keeper to
pay as required by Paragraph 9(2)(e).
--- End Quote ---
not "appeal"
#Post#: 47777--------------------------------------------------
Re: SABA demanding driver details after appeal – Paid at machine
– Parking PCN from Croydon University Hospital
DIR By: b789
Date: December 1, 2024, 3:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm not disputing [member=428]H C Andersen[/member]'s point. I'm
simply suggesting having a bit if fun at SABA's ridiculous
attempt to tell the Keeper that only the driver can appeal. We
all know that SABA will never accept the appeal anyway.
When it comes to PoFA, there will be the usual uphill battle to
get some moronic POPLA assessor to understand the finer points
of PoFA. A bridge to cross when we reach it.
#Post#: 47779--------------------------------------------------
Re: SABA demanding driver details after appeal – Paid at machine
– Parking PCN from Croydon University Hospital
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: December 1, 2024, 3:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=75]mickR[/member]..
The suggested draft:
'The Keeper is Entitled to Appeal:
As the Notice to Keeper (NtK) was addressed to me as the
registered keeper of the vehicle, I am entitled to respond and
appeal. '
#Post#: 47831--------------------------------------------------
Re: SABA demanding driver details after appeal – Paid at machine
– Parking PCN from Croydon University Hospital
DIR By: mickR
Date: December 2, 2024, 4:14 am
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yep apologies I missed that
#Post#: 47983--------------------------------------------------
Re: SABA demanding driver details after appeal – Paid at machine
– Parking PCN from Croydon University Hospital
DIR By: ikina
Date: December 3, 2024, 4:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you all for your help with this. I am truly grateful for
your time.
I have read all the responses and redrafted the response to
this:
"Dear SABA,
Thank you for your email.
The Keeper is Entitled to Appeal:
As the Notice to Keeper (NtK) was addressed to me as the
registered keeper of the vehicle, I am entitled to respond and
appeal.
Non-Compliance with PoFA:
Your NtK lacks the mandatory "invitation" for the keeper to pay
as required by Paragraph 9(2)(e).
The NtK also fails to specify a “period of parking”, instead
referencing a single timestamp, which does not satisfy Paragraph
9(2)(a).
Evidence of Payment Already Provided:
I have submitted irrefutable evidence that a valid ticket was
purchased using your suggested machine. It is unclear why your
systems, or your warden’s observations, failed to reflect this.
I urge SABA to consider this appeal as submitted and to issue a
POPLA code if they choose to reject it."
I hope I am understanding this all correctly. Please feel free
to correct me if I have misunderstood any of it.
#Post#: 47984--------------------------------------------------
Re: SABA demanding driver details after appeal – Paid at machine
– Parking PCN from Croydon University Hospital
DIR By: ikina
Date: December 3, 2024, 4:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=26]b789[/member] I contacted PALS and received this as a
response:
"Thank you for your email and I am sorry to read of these
difficulties.
I am sorry we cannot help directly with this as we are a PALS
team a mental health trust. I've copied in the PALS team for
Croydon Health Services although they may not be able to help
either.
These resources may be useful for you:
HTML https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/parking-tickets/appealing-a-parking-ticket/
HTML https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/parking-tickets/appealing-a-parking-ticket-when-someone-else-was-driving/"
#Post#: 47998--------------------------------------------------
Re: SABA demanding driver details after appeal – Paid at machine
– Parking PCN from Croydon University Hospital
DIR By: b789
Date: December 3, 2024, 5:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
This is the PALS service you should be contacting:
HTML https://www.croydonhealthservices.nhs.uk/patient-experience-and-pals
I certainly wouldn't bother with CAB. They are clueless when it
comes to private parking tickets.
You may want to point this document out to them:
HTML https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles
Especially this bit:
--- Quote ---
> NHS organisations are responsible for the actions of private
contractors who run car parks on their behalf.
>
> NHS organisations should act against rogue contractors in line
with the relevant codes of practice where applicable.
>
> Contracts should not be let on any basis that incentivises
additional charges, for example ‘income from parking charge
notices only’.
--- End Quote ---
Maybe ask them how their agent makes their income from these
PCNs or does it go back to the Trust (unlikely).
#Post#: 48128--------------------------------------------------
Re: SABA demanding driver details after appeal – Paid at machine
– Parking PCN from Croydon University Hospital
DIR By: ikina
Date: December 3, 2024, 3:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you [member=26]b789[/member] Ive sent this. Will update on
here when I hear back.
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