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#Post#: 47516--------------------------------------------------
Question on merging 2 incidents into 1 offence
DIR By: Soadfan1
Date: November 28, 2024, 4:12 pm
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My friend ( genuinely) has committed 3 speeding offences
relatively recently, 2 of which are the same camera within 20
minutes of each other all 3 are for doing between 36 and 38 in a
30.
she then discovered she still has 3 points on her licence
that doesn't expire until Jan 26 so is terrified of getting a
totting up ban.
Obviously she is devastated and having been here before I
remember there used to be talk of going to court and having
some offences merged into one if they were very close to each
other.
Is there any way in which it could be reduced to 9 points if
the 2 incidents so close to each other are counted as 1.
She cannot do a speed awareness course for any of them as one
was already done within 3 years.
Please forgive my ignorance if it obviously cant, I cannot
remember under which circumstances it was considered.
Thanks.
#Post#: 47518--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question on merging 2 incidents into 1 offence
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: November 28, 2024, 4:23 pm
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--- Quote from: Soadfan1 link ---
>
> My friend ( genuinely) has committed 3 speeding offences
--- End Quote ---
Send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance.
--- Quote ---
> Is there any way in which it could be reduced to 9 points if
the 2 incidents so close to each other are counted as 1.
>
--- End Quote ---
That would tend to depend largely on the facts of the case(s),
which you have so far chosen not to trouble us with.
#Post#: 47519--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question on merging 2 incidents into 1 offence
DIR By: Soadfan1
Date: November 28, 2024, 4:30 pm
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--- Quote from: andy_foster link ---
>
> [quote author=Soadfan1 link=topic=4068.msg47516#msg47516
date=1732831936]
> My friend ( genuinely) has committed 3 speeding offences
--- End Quote ---
Send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance.
--- Quote ---
> Is there any way in which it could be reduced to 9 points if
the 2 incidents so close to each other are counted as 1.
>
--- End Quote ---
That would tend to depend largely on the facts of the case(s),
which you have so far chosen not to trouble us with.
[/quote]
What would you need to know? Sorry I dont know everything about
it myself just yet but can ask them. They wont go onto websites
like this so I offered to help as I have been/was on the old
forums.
Thanks.
#Post#: 47538--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question on merging 2 incidents into 1 offence
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: November 29, 2024, 4:18 am
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There are two possibilities:
The first is that she committed a single continuous offence.
That is, she exceed the speed limit once, remained above that
limit, and was caught by two cameras during that single
transgression. That is obviously not applicable here as it was
the same camera.
The second is that she committed two separate offences but they
were committed “on the same occasion.” When a driver is
convicted in that way, two fines and endorsements are imposed,
but only one lot of points (for the most serious).
“On the same occasion” is not defined and it would be for a
court to decide the issue if it was claimed. Twenty minutes
apart would seem a bit of a stretch to meet that definition.
However, since it seems one of the offences will take her to 12
points she will have the matter dealt with in court anyway and
it will cost her nothing to make that argument.
Has she taken a speed awareness course in the las three years?
#Post#: 47553--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question on merging 2 incidents into 1 offence
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: November 29, 2024, 5:58 am
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--- Quote from: NewJudge link ---
>
> Has she taken a speed awareness course in the las three years?
>
--- End Quote ---
It seems so.
#Post#: 47555--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question on merging 2 incidents into 1 offence
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: November 29, 2024, 6:40 am
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Thanks, sp. "Senior Moment" >:(
#Post#: 47951--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question on merging 2 incidents into 1 offence
DIR By: Soadfan1
Date: December 2, 2024, 5:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: NewJudge link ---
>
> There are two possibilities:
>
> The first is that she committed a single continuous offence.
That is, she exceed the speed limit once, remained above that
limit, and was caught by two cameras during that single
transgression. That is obviously not applicable here as it was
the same camera.
>
> The second is that she committed two separate offences but
they were committed “on the same occasion.” When a driver is
convicted in that way, two fines and endorsements are imposed,
but only one lot of points (for the most serious).
>
> “On the same occasion” is not defined and it would be for a
court to decide the issue if it was claimed. Twenty minutes
apart would seem a bit of a stretch to meet that definition.
However, since it seems one of the offences will take her to 12
points she will have the matter dealt with in court anyway and
it will cost her nothing to make that argument.
>
> Has she taken a speed awareness course in the las three years?
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks.
So the situation as I have been told is that she had a incident
that she took a speed awareness course for in 2022 so there is
no option for that.
She had a 3 point speeding incident circa 2023.
She had a 3 point speeding offence earlier this year around
August
She then had 2 3 point offences exactly 20 minutes apart, but I
have noted on the COFP papers that one says NorthBound and one
says southbound.
They are the following cameras.
A594 TIGERS WAY ( SOUTHBOUND) LEICESTER AT 13:15
A594 TIGERS WAY ( NORTHBOUND) LEICESTER AT 13:35
The forms make no mention that she will automatically reach 12
points with this, should they? Or will they only send a summons
to court once the COFP has been returned and the licence is
endorsed with the 6 points that takes it to 12.
I now expect- but correct me if I am wrong, that the time
between the two coupled with the fact one is Northbound and one
southbound will mean they will uphold this as two different
offences and 6 points?
Is there anything at all that she can do?
She is prepared to accept the 6 month ban, as there are no
exceptional hardships either.
As it happens these points are the only ones she has ever had
and has had a family bereavement plus a break up which sent her
mental health into decline. She feels that she should really
have been driving due to lapses in concentration ( I am aware
this is all irrelevant to the case I just felt compelled to add
so that she wasnt thought of as a habitual reckless driver).
#Post#: 47952--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question on merging 2 incidents into 1 offence
DIR By: Soadfan1
Date: December 2, 2024, 5:17 pm
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Also I meant to ask, is a totting up ban automatically 6 months
or can it be reduced?
Thanks.
#Post#: 47972--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question on merging 2 incidents into 1 offence
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: December 3, 2024, 2:51 am
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What was the date of the offence that led to the course? The
dates used to calculate the three year period in which only one
course can be taken are the offence dates.
--- Quote ---
> The forms make no mention that she will automatically reach 12
points with this, should they?
--- End Quote ---
No, because the police do not yet know who the driver was.
One continuous offence is obviously definitely out. The other
option (2 offences committed on the same occasion) is up to the
court. I would say it's unlikely to succeed but since It will
cost nothing to ask for it to be considered, it's worth a shot.
When a driver reaches 12 points the court must impose a
disqualification of a minimum of six months. This can be reduced
(potentially to zero) if the driver can prove that he or others
will face "exceptional hardship" if he is banned. Obviously
every driver who is banned will face some hardship and to
succeed with this argument the hardship must be over and above
that "normal" level. If the argument is successful the ban is
normally avoided entirely.
#Post#: 47992--------------------------------------------------
Re: Question on merging 2 incidents into 1 offence
DIR By: Soadfan1
Date: December 3, 2024, 4:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: NewJudge link ---
>
> What was the date of the offence that led to the course? The
dates used to calculate the three year period in which only one
course can be taken are the offence dates.
>
> [quote]The forms make no mention that she will automatically
reach 12 points with this, should they?
--- End Quote ---
No, because the police do not yet know who the driver was.
One continuous offence is obviously definitely out. The other
option (2 offences committed on the same occasion) is up to the
court. I would say it's unlikely to succeed but since It will
cost nothing to ask for it to be considered, it's worth a shot.
When a driver reaches 12 points the court must impose a
disqualification of a minimum of six months. This can be reduced
(potentially to zero) if the driver can prove that he or others
will face "exceptional hardship" if he is banned. Obviously
every driver who is banned will face some hardship and to
succeed with this argument the hardship must be over and above
that "normal" level. If the argument is successful the ban is
normally avoided entirely.
[/quote]
Sorry, these forms are the ones after she admitted being the
driver and both forms say she can either take 3 points or go to
court.
Now they know who the driver was should they automatically just
say court if she had reached 12 points?
There is no offer of a course so that must have been within the
3 years, but she seemed a little unclear ( to me) as to
whether she was 100% about to reach 12 points.
Would she only go to court and a ban once accepting the 3
points on both COFP forms, or would it already have told her she
will reach 12 points?
Hope Im not making it sound too confusing.
Thanks.
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