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#Post#: 47183--------------------------------------------------
Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space,
Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
DIR By: atleastitwasntstolen
Date: November 26, 2024, 6:12 pm
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Thank you in advance for any help – I recognise I may not have a
case here, but it’s my first time having this happen (I’ve only
had the car 5 months and never had a parking ticket with any of
my previous cars) and if there’s a chance of getting part of
this fee back I’ll give it a go! The towing also resulted in
quite a long scratch along the side of my car (might buff out,
but not sure). [Edited to fix formatting]
Context:
I have a parking permit for the area and typically park on
Southern Grove because my nearby street is always packed. I was
parked on another part of Southern Grove earlier on Sunday 17th,
took the car out very briefly and returned to Southern Grove and
chose the first available parking spot along a stretch I always
park on that I know is covered by my permit. I was transporting
my partner who had an eye surgery several days earlier and is
super light sensitive and he was doing really badly with
reflections, glare, etc in the car so my goal was to get parked
and him home as soon as possible. Neither of us saw any signs
regarding a parking suspension. According to the PCN, my car was
ticketed Monday the 18th shortly before 10am and presumably
towed shortly or immediately after because the car was checked
into the THC pound at 12:38pm. I was not notified the car had
been impounded and because I only use the car about once a week
didn’t figure out it was taken until Monday the 25th, resulting
in a ridiculously high reclaim fee. It appears that during the
tow/while at THC pound there was also a long, shallow scratch
along the side of the car (photo attached).
My questions at the moment:
- When I went searching for the car Monday the 25th with the
intention of using it, there were no longer any suspension signs
up anywhere, assuming they had been there previously. Is the
council required to provide me with evidence that there were
indeed suspension signs up at the time I parked my car?
- The car was impounded for a week and I had not been notified
in any way, resulting in my panicking for 2 hours thinking my
car had been stolen, going to the police station, etc. Had I
been notified, I would have picked the car up immediately on
Monday, avoiding £280 of impound storage fees (and 2 hours of
panic). It seems super unreasonable to me that they can fine you
a daily rate when you haven’t even been notified they have your
car – is there any way of getting out of this? I only use my car
on average once a week because I prioritise walking, cycling, or
public transport wherever I can.
- Any possibility of them being more accommodating due to the
scenario with my partner’s surgery? We were arguably more
distracted and prioritising getting him out of the (quite
bright) sunlight that day due to the surgery recovery.
- What about the large scratch they left on the left side of my
car? Any chance of getting anything back for this?
- On the “Statutory grounds for representation” sheet it says
“The civil enforcement officer had not… fixed a penalty charge
notice to the vehicle or handed such a notice to the person
appearing to that officer to be in charge of the vehicle, before
the vehicle was removed.” When I arrived at the pound lot and
reclaimed my car there was no PCN on the car itself (no yellow
sticky envelope), meaning I would have had no opportunity to fix
my error before it got towed. Is this grounds for arguing
against the fee?
In summary, if they come back and say “yes there were signs, you
should have looked harder” I get that, but the impound fee seems
really unreasonable to me. Surely the daily fee incentivises
them to not inform you and there should really be some type of
protections around this/rules that they can’t start charging you
for storage until they have notified you?
Items provided at time of picking up the car:
At time of picking up today, I was supplied with a receipt of my
payment and a copy of the PCN and a “Representations against
removal of vehicle” sheet, attached below.
PCN front:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/KJGHViX.jpeg
PCN back:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/sShemk3.jpeg
Representations against removal of vehicle front:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/xhypSwY.jpeg
<br>
Repr back:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/oq3cJDO.jpeg
<br>
Scratch on car:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/2q7DML9.jpeg
<br>
Location:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/bByRn96FtnM6wgAm7
Signage at location on Nov 25:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/IJTrOlI.jpeg<br
/>
Thanks for any help and apologies for any formatting issues -
first time posting here and first time using imgur.
#Post#: 47185--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space,
Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 26, 2024, 6:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If there is any good news at all, it is that you have now paid
all there is to pay, therefore submitting representations
against the PCN, tow, and the excessive storage charges is a
no-brainer. In addition, registering an appeal at London
Tribunals as well when you are inevitably rejected by the
council is also a no-brainer, because there would be no
additional costs or penalty in doing so.
However, whilst you have posted some photos, we need to see
those the CEO will no doubt have taken. This is because in your
narrative, it is clear that you didn't see any suspension sign
when you parked in broad daylight, and when you returned to
drive your car some days later and found it missing, there were
also no suspension signs.
So please give us a GSV link to the exact location of parking,
and if you can, find the council photos, download them and post
them here. It is more than likely that the suspension sign was
erected after you parked, in which case you were parked legally
when the suspension sign(s) was erected. Councils are
notoriously bad at giving advance notice of suspensions.
You should now write some representations and post them here for
review. This needs to be based on your narrative here, namely
that you saw no suspension signs in position when you parked on
<date>, and on return to your car on <date> found the car
missing and then found out the car had been towed from a
supposedly suspended parking area. State that you deny
responsibility for the PCN and subsequent tow and storage costs
as the contravention did not occur because there was no sign
advising of a suspension.
#Post#: 47203--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space,
Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: November 27, 2024, 2:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
+1 to Incandescent's advice.
Please note that some Councils take down online photos when a
PCN is paid, so you may have to chase them by 'phone or e-mail.
Do not let any tardiness from the Council in providing photos
prevent you getting on with drafting reps.
Your reps should be in two parts: 1st against the PCN itself,
and 2nd against the tow as being disproportionate (why didn't
Council relocate?).
You can also add the justifiable gripe about the lack of
notification (not that they will allow this) leading to
disproportionate storage charges.
As advised, please post a draft here for comment, but do not
miss deadlines.
#Post#: 47221--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space,
Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: November 27, 2024, 4:45 am
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The suspension sign was on a parking sign behind and I can't see
another nearer parking sign so it seems the PCN looks OK
although the impounding probably disproportionate as we often
see.
There are two pics of the suspension sign but the wording can't
be read except it looks like a one day suspension.
HTML https://i.ibb.co/tQkD42m/Screenshot-2024-11-27-at-10-37-39.png
HTML https://i.ibb.co/PZgnsZP/Screenshot-2024-11-27-at-10-37-27.png
HTML https://i.ibb.co/0CXnLjc/Screenshot-2024-11-27-at-10-38-40.png
HTML https://i.ibb.co/XtL60yn/Screenshot-2024-11-27-at-10-37-54.png
HTML https://i.ibb.co/d6RXyhy/Screenshot-2024-11-27-at-10-38-35.png
HTML https://i.ibb.co/1rG2Yms/Screenshot-2024-11-27-at-10-39-27.png
#Post#: 47223--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space,
Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 27, 2024, 5:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
+1
Photos are up.
Car clearly parked opposite Loweswater House, approx. 3 car
lengths beyond a clear suspension sign on a lamp column. No
other sign further on within sight. Orientation of car shows
that this sign was passed. The wings of the suspension sign are
clearly visible behind the car and there to be seen in daylight.
Car was lifted at approx. 12.11, over 2 hours after PCN was
issued.
OP, I don't think you stand any chance with these angles. Your
other references to not visiting the car often and passenger's
condition are only mitigation IMO.
Which IMO leaves:
What did the sign state(unreadable in full);
When erected and was it in situ when you parked;
Why was your car not moved as opposed to removed;
Was the suspension underpinned by a lawful order?
#Post#: 47364--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space,
Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
DIR By: atleastitwasntstolen
Date: November 27, 2024, 5:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for all the responses and for locating the photos - I
found them this morning but hadn't had a chance to post yet.
Agreed that if the signs were there when I parked I won't have a
case re the PCN, but good to know I can still argue that the tow
was unnecessary. I also can't read what it says on the signs and
whether the bay was only partially suspended (in which case the
area I was in might not qualify) or fully suspended or what date
the signs were posted.
Regarding the tow and the timing of the tow, I got I letter in
the mail today notifying me that the car had been removed with
the sentence "This letter gives notice under Regulation 12...
that the London Borough of Tower Hamlets removed the above
vehicle from Southern Grove on 18/11/2024 at 09:56 in accordance
with Regulation 5C of the Regulations." This throws into
question the timing of the tow (since the photos are timestamped
differently) and whether they left any time between the PCN
being given and the tow being done, which I take it would lend
credibility to the tow to the pound being a disproportionate
reaction compared to for example relocating the vehicle to the
other side of the street.
Three main questions:
- Regarding the details of the signage not being legible and the
date the signs were posted - I take it I should get this info
(by emailing tickets@towerhamlets.gov.uk?) in advance of making
representations, or is this something I request in the
representations themselves?
- @H C Anderson, could you clarify what you mean by "Was the
suspension underpinned by a lawful order?" From the sign I think
the suspension was for filming being done at the park. Online it
says that requests for suspensions must be submitted a week in
advance so the council can give residents notice. It says in
exceptional circumstances (examples given are police,
infrastructure, or utility emergencies) 3 days notice can be
done with a Emergency Surcharge. I take it if the suspension was
applied for less than a week in advance this would also give me
leverage since filming is not an emergency. If the suspension is
for more than 10 spaces (60 meters) 10 days notice is required -
the parking bay they suspended is very long so this might apply
in this scenario.
- Is there any recourse for the damage they did to my car in
moving it?
Representations draft (pending additional info I'm collecting
tomorrow by calling the phone number for filming suspensions):
Dear Sir/Madam,
[left]I am writing to formally challenge the Penalty Charge
Notice (PCN) issued to my vehicle (Registration Number: LP13
JYJ) on 18 November 2024 for being parked in a partly or wholly
suspended bay.[/left]
[left]I would like to submit the following points in my
representation for your review and consideration:[/left]
- [NOTE: I'll potentially remove this once I know about when the
signs were posted and on which lampposts] Uncertainty Regarding
the Visibility of the Suspension Sign: I acknowledge that photos
have been provided showing a suspension sign visible from the
location where my vehicle was parked on the day it was removed.
However, it is unclear whether this sign was present and visible
at the time I parked. I did not see the suspension sign at the
time of parking (prior to 18 November 2024). Given that I am not
aware of the exact placement of the sign on the day in question,
I respectfully request confirmation of the dates on which the
suspension signs were posted.
- No Opportunity to Rectify the Situation: According to the PCN,
my vehicle first ticketed at 09:56. On 27 November 2024 I
received a letter notifying me of the vehicle removal, which
states that the council "removed the above vehicle from Southern
Grove on 18/11/2024 at 09:56". This indicates I had no
opportunity to rectify the situation between the issuance of the
ticket and the removal of my vehicle. In circumstances where a
parking contravention is identified, it is common practice to
allow the driver an opportunity to move the vehicle if they are
able to do so, or at least be informed of the contravention
promptly. The lack of such an opportunity in this case seems
unjust, as I was unaware of the suspension and had no chance to
move the vehicle before it was removed.
- Alternative Action Not Taken (e.g., Moving the Vehicle to
Another Bay): Given that there was an available bay on the other
side of the road, it would have been reasonable for the council
to have considered moving my vehicle there rather than
impounding it, especially since I was not informed of the
suspension at the time of parking. I believe that removing my
vehicle to the pound was an unnecessarily harsh action resulting
in excessive storage fees.
- Excessive Storage Fees Due to Delayed Notification: Since I
was not notified of the vehicle’s removal until a week later
(letter received 27 November 2024), I was unaware that my car
had been impounded and thus did not have the opportunity to
prevent further storage charges. I use my vehicle on average
once a week and spent two hours on the late evening of Monday 25
November believing my car had been stolen, searching surrounding
streets for the vehicle in case I had misremembered the parking
location, and walking to the Bow Police Station. This delay in
notification has caused me undue financial hardship in the form
of excessive storage fees. I request that the council take this
into account and consider reducing or waiving these fees due to
the delay in informing me about the vehicle’s removal.
- Damage to vehicle: Upon picking up my vehicle and returning
home I identified a long scratch along the left side of the car,
along with a shorter scratch below the handle, which were not
present prior to the 18 Nov 2024 and which are not visible in
the photos the council employee took prior to removing my
vehicle. Therefore it can be assumed that this scratch happened
either during the removal (e.g., scraped by tree branches when
being transported) or while in storage at the impound lot.
- Mitigating Circumstances: I am a responsible vehicle owner,
adhere to parking regulations, and have a parking permit for the
area the bay is in. At the time of parking I was transporting my
partner who was at the time recovering from an eye surgery
causing him severe light sensitivity, so my priority had been to
park ASAP in a bay I knew my permit covered and to get him home.
Assuming suspension signs were present at the time I parked,
this situation was an unfortunate oversight, and I request that
the council take into consideration the unusual circumstances in
which this incident occurred. I would appreciate any leniency
you can offer, given that this is a first-time occurrence.
In light of the above points, I respectfully request that you
cancel the vehicle removal and storage fees. I believe that the
circumstances surrounding this incident, including the lack of
opportunity to rectify the situation, damage to the vehicle, and
the financial burden caused by the delayed notification, warrant
the cancellation of the associated charges.
#Post#: 47501--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space,
Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
DIR By: Bayonet
Date: November 28, 2024, 1:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The suspension sign doesn't conform to the Authorisation
drawing.
HTML https://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-3525.pdf
#Post#: 47517--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space,
Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
DIR By: atleastitwasntstolen
Date: November 28, 2024, 4:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Oh wow [member=389]Bayonet[/member] you're right. I'll
definitely add that to my representations draft. Is there a
precident of people having PCNs voided over that though?
Definitely promising though
#Post#: 47534--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space,
Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 29, 2024, 3:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
OP, slow down pl.
As neither you, nor we nor the authority can see from the
evidence what restriction was actually in place then IMO it's
premature to draft reps.
In any event, let's get some hard facts pl because you have not
posted the receipt from the pound therefore we don't know when
the car was collected. (you've skirted around this in your
narrative - not deliberately, it's just that you know and think
what you've written conveys this clearly but, as tends to
happen, the writer tends to confer on words a meaning which they
already know and can't see matters from the perspective of those
who don't!**).From this date comes the latest date for
submission of in-time reps.
You might also ask the authority what the sign stated.
**- we're no different from the adjudicator in this regard.
Given your circumstances i.e. didn't see sign when you parked or
when you returned and are therefore wholly relying on the
council's photos which, you would argue, are not clear and
therefore deny you the opportunity of compiling a coherent
appeal for want of knowing the detail of the contravention
you're alleged to have committed, you would suggest that the
adjudicator is in the same position and would ask that your
appeal be allowed on this point because the evidence does not
prove the contravention. If by any chance the authority were to
include evidence in their submission to the adjudicator which
set out the detail - because the evidence available to you
online did not - then you would suggest that this was improper
and should be disregarded.
But you're not there yet!
#Post#: 47560--------------------------------------------------
Re: Tower Hamlets Council - Code 21, suspended bay or space,
Southern Grove Road - PCN, towed, and vehicle scratched
DIR By: atleastitwasntstolen
Date: November 29, 2024, 7:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Sorry for my over-eagerness, two other posters had said next
step for me was to draft representations so I wanted to make
sure I wasn't dropping the ball.
I have contacted the filming office and the traffic tickets
office to get further details regarding the specifics of the
suspension, when it was applied for, when the signs were posted
and where, and what specifically the sign said.
Regarding your questions re timeline (very thorough for
completeness):
- Realising vehicle was missing: Around 7:30pm 25th Nov.
Realised it was impounded shortly before 9pm.
- First contacting impound: Called pound 8:50pm on 25th Nov and
emailed (8:55pm)
- Picking up from impound: Arrived before 12:30pm on 26 Nov.
Waited in the queue and then was able to pay at 12:47 (see
receipt). They tried to charge me £40 extra because it's based
on 24 hour periods and the car was listed on trace.london as
being checked in to the pound at 12:38, so I pointed out I was
there before 12:30 and they didn't have me pay the extra £40
(this still seems to be listed as outstanding on trace.london
though).
- Received notification of impound on Nov 27th via the mail,
with the letter dated as the 25th of November.
Receipt:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/CepZsCI.png
Notification letter:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/yLxfG2A.jpeg
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