DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
FreeTrafficLegalAdvice
HTML https://ftla.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Private parking tickets
*****************************************************
#Post#: 46547--------------------------------------------------
Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues at
Soft Play
DIR By: Chris101
Date: November 21, 2024, 2:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
On 24/10, the driver took their children to a soft play center.
Upon arrival, they found that the payment machine for parking
(cash/card) was either out of order or the process had moved
entirely online. The driver attempted to use the designated app
to make payment but encountered significant issues: poor signal
and technical difficulties with the app itself prevented the
payment from going through.
After spending about 10 minutes trying to resolve the issue, the
driver had to prioritize their children’s soft play session,
which was about to begin. They decided to head inside with the
intention of sorting the payment once inside. Unfortunately, the
driver became distracted and didn’t attempt payment again until
roughly 30 minutes later. At that point, they successfully
completed the payment, as evidenced by the receipt. However,
they were unable to backdate the payment on the app and could
only pay for an hour starting from the time the transaction was
processed. The driver is aware that their total stay slightly
exceeded the hour paid for.
Recently, the lease company informed the vehicle’s keeper that
they had received a PCN (Parking Charge Notice) related to this
incident. The lease company has charged a £12 admin fee for
handling the notice and has contacted the issuing company,
Gemini, requesting that the notice be readdressed to the driver
directly. They advised that no appeal should be made until the
PCN is issued in the driver’s name. As of now (21/11), the
driver is still waiting for Gemini to send the notice directly
to them.
Key Questions:
Are there grounds to challenge this PCN?
Given that payment was ultimately made (albeit delayed), and
that genuine issues with the app and signal caused the delay,
does the driver have a valid basis to contest the PCN?
Does the inability to backdate payment on the app provide
further grounds for challenge, especially since the driver paid
for as much time as they could from the point the transaction
was completed?
What should the driver expect when the PCN arrives?
Are there specific details or evidence that Gemini must provide,
particularly in the case of a private lease vehicle?
Does Gemini have any legal obligations to provide additional
evidence?
For instance, should Gemini provide photographic evidence of the
vehicle’s entry and exit, a timeline of the parking session, or
a detailed breakdown of the alleged breach?
Does the fact that payment was made for an hour, even if
slightly under the full duration of the stay, provide grounds
for mitigation?
Could the fact that a payment was made and the overstay was
marginal help challenge the validity of the PCN?
Any advice, similar experiences, or guidance on how to handle
this situation would be greatly appreciated. The driver wants to
ensure they approach this correctly and fully understand their
rights before taking action. Thank you!
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 46576--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues
at Soft Play
DIR By: b789
Date: November 21, 2024, 6:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Lucky for you, you have a “Golden ticket”, as long as the driver
is not identified. Gemini cannot “readdress it to the driver”
because they do not know who the driver is. Neither does the
lease company. They can only transfer liability to you as the
“Hirer”.
If they have transferred the liability correctly as instructs on
the Notice to Keeper (NtK) they received and you have shown it
to us, then there is no more liability for the company. You must
now wait for a Notice to Hirer (NtH) to be sent to you in your
name.
What is likely to happen, with greater than 99% certainty, is
that Gemini will send you the NtH in your name. However, they
are almost certainly going to omit the copies of required
documents as required under PoFA paragraph 14 and will therefore
be unable to hold you, the hirer liable.
Only the driver is liable and there is no legal obligation on
the Hirer to identify the driver. With that in mind, when you
receive the NtH, you will appeal only as the Hirer and decline
to provide the drivers details.
At the end of the day, they will have nowhere to go with this as
they are not allowed to infer or presume that the Hirer must
also be the driver.
So, wait patiently for the NtH to arrive and let us know when it
does and we’ll give you the appeal template to use.
The only thing to make sure of, does the lease company have your
current address to pas on to Gemini?
#Post#: 46617--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues
at Soft Play
DIR By: Chris101
Date: November 22, 2024, 4:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes, the lease company has the hirer’s current address and
assume, has passed it on to Gemini. Additionally, the hirer was
not the driver at the time of the incident.
#Post#: 46619--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues
at Soft Play
DIR By: DWMB2
Date: November 22, 2024, 4:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Chris101 link ---
>
> assume, has passed it on to Gemini.
>
--- End Quote ---
We've found hire companies can be rather unpredictable when it
comes to dealing with these things. It may be sensible to check
with them directly rather than assuming.
#Post#: 46620--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues
at Soft Play
DIR By: b789
Date: November 22, 2024, 4:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Good. It doesn't matter if the Hirer was the driver or not. The
burden of proof would be on the operator to show that the Hirer
was the driver and the only way they could do that is if the
Hirer told them they were also the driver, which they are under
no legal obligation to do so to an unregulated private parking
company.
You must now wait for the NtH to arrive in the Hirers name. Once
it does, confirm to us whether it contains the following
documents:
[indent](a) a statement signed by or on behalf of the
vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the
vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;
(b) a copy of the hire agreement; and
(c) a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under
that hire agreement.[/indent]
What you don't know is on what date the lease company
transferred the liability to the Hirer. The operator has to
"give" the NtH to the Hirer with 21 days of them receiving the
liability transfer and required documents, if they intend to
rely on PoFA to try and hold the Hirer liable.
#Post#: 48754--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues
at Soft Play
DIR By: Chris101
Date: December 7, 2024, 6:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The Hirer recieved the attached letter today, no other
associated letters, other than this one.
How should they proceed?
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 48760--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues
at Soft Play
DIR By: b789
Date: December 7, 2024, 7:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Good. As you now have a Notice to Hirer (NtH) in your name, you
can appeal, only as the Hirer, as they have no idea who the
driver is, and tell them to go rotate on a sharp stick, slowly.
Use the following as your appeal as the Hirer (do not select
anything that suggests anything except that the appellant is the
Hirer or anything except driver.:
--- Quote ---
> I am the Hirer of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking
charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I
will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your
client landowner.
>
> As your Notice to Hirer (NtH) does not fully comply with ALL
the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the Hirer
of the vehicle liable for the charge. As your NtH did not
include copies of the documents mandated in PoFA paragraph
14(2)(a), you have failed to fully comply with ALL the
requirements of PoFA if your intention was to hold the Hirer
liable.
>
> Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient.
There will be no admission as to who was driving and no
inference or assumptions can be drawn. Gemini has relied on
contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.
>
> The Hirer cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the
driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law
of agency. Your NtH can only hold the driver liable. Gemini have
no hope at IAS, so you are urged to save us both a complete
waste of time and cancel the PCN.
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 48763--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues
at Soft Play
DIR By: Chris101
Date: December 7, 2024, 8:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Attempting to appeal via Gemini website and the attached image
is of the mandatory field that must be selected when appealing.
Is there an email I can appeal to?
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 48766--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues
at Soft Play
DIR By: b789
Date: December 7, 2024, 8:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
appeals@geminiparkingsolutions.com
Make sure you make your appeal as a PDF letter addressed to:
Gemini Parking Solutions London Ltd
PO Box 815
Wigan
WN1 9WX
But sent as an email attachment to the email address above.
If I can figure that out after a 2 minute Google search, you
should be able to do so too!
#Post#: 48773--------------------------------------------------
Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues
at Soft Play
DIR By: Chris101
Date: December 7, 2024, 10:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Apologies, I did and forgot to update here!
The email was sent with the PCNN number and template.
Should one be resent as a PDF this time?
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 2
DIR Next Page