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#Post#: 46435--------------------------------------------------
TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
DIR By: concoj
Date: November 20, 2024, 8:05 pm
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Hi team, I received a penalty for turning right.
Have you had this case before? Please advise
Many thanks
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 46437--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 21, 2024, 1:14 am
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Each case turns on its own facts, let's have your side of the
story pl.
#Post#: 46450--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 21, 2024, 4:26 am
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So here: -
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/vogmRu1Brq3qn52m7
GSV latest is July 2022, so this is a relatively new
restriction.
SO, OP, please tell us about the signs, and why you did no obey
them. Photos of the approach best if you are able to take them.
#Post#: 46565--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 21, 2024, 4:43 pm
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[member=1041]concoj[/member] all TFL penalties are subject to
challenge at the moment owing to various technical arguments,
however the starting point is to get the video. Call TFL first
thing tomorrow on 0343 222 3333 and ask for the CCTV, they will
send you a DVD in the post and put the penalty on hold while you
wait.
In the meantime I'll get hold of the traffic order.
As for signage, there's one here
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/kd9UzkDm9MqxiFd79
that's been around
since 2019, but that's 50 yards from the junction and there's no
sign at the actual junction; Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs
Manual
HTML https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c78f895e5274a0ebfec719b/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf<br
/>says at 4.5.3 that "A prohibited turn sign to diagram 612 or
613
is sited immediately before the junction, normally on the left
hand side."
It would be useful if you could go back and check if the signage
situation has changed at all.
#Post#: 48544--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: December 5, 2024, 6:39 pm
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[member=1041]concoj[/member] any update on this?
The TFL website says this:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/jQsY5So.png
An enquiry is not a representation, you need to submit a
representation sooner rather than later or you risk running out
of time and losing the right to appeal. A representation is
submitted by using the "challenge" button you can see on
HTML https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn
once you access
the PCN details.
In the meantime I've got hold of The Wandsworth (Prescribed
Routes) (No. 5) Order 2019
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RNELBbMe6qZu6PYVQ7R-o94ouVYkzsVi/view.
#Post#: 48941--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
DIR By: concoj
Date: December 8, 2024, 6:31 pm
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dear cp8759 you where all correct "As for signage, there's one
here
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/kd9UzkDm9MqxiFd79
that's been
around since 2019, but that's 50 yards from the junction and
there's no sign at the actual junction"
I went to record a video the day after you advised and also
requested video footage that I need to play and post to you
probably using imgur.com
#Post#: 48942--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
DIR By: concoj
Date: December 8, 2024, 7:52 pm
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HTML https://imgur.com/a/1BQp30T
#Post#: 48946--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
DIR By: concoj
Date: December 9, 2024, 1:57 am
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Challenge draft
Representation details:
*I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time or never was the
owner of the vehicle in question.
There was no contravention of a prescribed order or failure to
comply with an indication given by a sign.
Supporting evidence
The only signage is located 50 yards from the junction and
there's no sign at the actual junction; Chapter 3 of the Traffic
Signs Manual says at 4.5.3 that "A prohibited turn sign to
diagram 612 or 613 is sited immediately before the junction,
normally on the left hand side."
Attached evidence:
HTML https://imgur.com/a/1BQp30T
1. Self recorded footage
2. TFL CCTV footage
Is that ok, should I proceed, please kindly advise
#Post#: 48967--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: December 9, 2024, 4:23 am
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You are considered to be the 'owner' for these purposes if you
were the registered keeper on the date of the contravention.
Were you?
As an aside, I think these PCNs are worded dreadfully because
they'll be some/many recipients who simply want to represent
that 'the contravention did not happen' and who beat themselves
up about what the hell is a 'prescribed order' and 'scheduled
section 36 traffic sign'. Even the front of the PCN only refers
to 'contravention'!
Anyway OP, as regards the omission of signs my understanding is:
The Traffic Signs Manual reference is para. 4.2.9 and Fig. 4.12
pages 29 and 30. This still refers to 'should' not 'must'.
The LATOR
(
HTML https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/contents/made)<br
/>reference is Regulation 18, but again this refers to 'may
consider requisite ...adequate information'.
Similarly, the Traffic Signs etc. Regs refer to siting 'as near
as practicable' to the place where the prohibition has effect.
Whether there is case law on this point, I don't know.
But in any event, put together this means that the burden is on
TfL to show why, in this case, the only sign has been placed 50m
in advance of the point at which the prohibition applies.
As regards 'as near as practical', I could possibly see TfL
arguing that the sign is placed at the same point at which
footway parking is permitted within a parking place and that in
order to avoid obstructing cars parked on the footway the sign
has been placed immediately before and that after is not
practicable because of the trees.
Who knows what they'll argue, assuming you get more than a
simple 'niet' from them!
#Post#: 49099--------------------------------------------------
Re: TFL: Elspeth road / Mysore road
DIR By: concoj
Date: December 9, 2024, 2:32 pm
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There was no contravention of a prescribed order or failure to
comply with an indication given by a sign.
Challenge draft
Representation details:
*There was no contravention of a prescribed order or failure to
comply with an indication given by a sign.
Supporting evidence:
The only signage is located 50 yards from the junction and
there's no sign at the actual junction; Chapter 3 of the Traffic
Signs Manual says at 4.5.3 that "A prohibited turn sign to
diagram 612 or 613 is sited immediately before the junction,
normally on the left hand side."
Attached evidence:
HTML https://imgur.com/a/1BQp30T
1. Self recorded footage
2. TFL CCTV footage
Is that ok, should I proceed, please kindly advise
***thank you so much H C Andersen as the previous message had an
error
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