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#Post#: 45964--------------------------------------------------
TfL - Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited -
Homerton Ambulance Station
DIR By: prowla
Date: November 18, 2024, 2:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
(Apologies for coming here part-way through the process - was
recommended via another site.)
Status:
- PCN dated 15/8/24
- Appealed on the basis that the driver's destination was the
ambulance station and they had to stop to give way to
pedestrians crossing the entrance.
- Appeal rejection received 6/11/24, quoting TSRGD Paragraph 11:
"11.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), the marking
provided for at item 25 of the table in Part 6 (“a diagram 1043
marking”) conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a
vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to
stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary
vehicles."
- Started formulating an appeal (draft below), but recommended
to come here for help.
- Rejection received 6/11/24, so 28 days from that is 4/12/24.
- TfL do not participate in the Environment & Traffic
Adjudicators online service, so the appeal has to be by post.
Draft of possible appeal against the rejection (not sent yet):
--- Quote ---
>
> Overview:
> 1. Transport for London (TfL) issued a Penalty Charge Notice
(PCN) for allegedly "Entering and stopping in a box junction
when prohibited".
> 2. An appeal was submitted stating that the destination was
the Ambulance Station at the site and the vehicle was prevented
from moving forwards to one of the vacant parking spaces in
front to the building by pedestrians crossing in front of the
vehicle.
> 3. An appeal rejection was received quoting the "Traffic Signs
Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD) Schedule 9, Part
2, Paragraph 11" as the contravention and stating "It is clear
the PCN has been correctly issued".
>
> Facts:
> 1. The quoted law, TSRGD Paragraph 11 states: "11.—(1) Subject
to sub-paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), the marking provided for at
item 25 of the table in Part 6 (“a diagram 1043 marking”)
conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle
to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within
the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles."
> 2. The rejection includes 3 photographs which each show people
crossing in the vehicle's would-be path.
> 3. The rejection states that the vehicle was "stationary for a
total of 8 seconds" for the duration of which there were always
pedestrians blocking access.
> 4. The photographs show 2 empty parking spaces in front of the
destination building.
> 5. The photographs show the exit of the box junction to be
clear and a number of vehicles passing by and proceeding on
through.
> 6. The TfL rejection states "It is clear the PCN has been
correctly issued".
> 7. The rejection states that "we do not consider the
mitigating factors present give reason to cancel".
>
> Analysis:
> 1. The law states that a vehicle must not enter the box
junction if its egress is prevented by stationary vehicles: this
was simply not the case, with TfL's supplied photographs showing
(a) that there were no stopped vehicles in-play and (b) other
vehicles were freely proceeding on through the box junction.
> 2. The vehicle had to stop to give way to crossing pedestrians
who are not criteria of the stated law because: (a) they were
not stopped and (b) they are not vehicles.
> 3. The PCN stated "when prohibited", but the criteria for the
alleged contravention were not met.
> 4. The rejection's statement that "It is clear the PCN has
been correctly issued" is not borne out by the facts.
> 5. (Arguably the mitigating factors of the pedestrians
preventing progress forwards into a vacant parking space at the
destination should have been a reasonable basis for cancelling
the notice, but the fact that no law was broken makes that point
moot.)
>
> Conclusion:
> TfL have issued the PCN incorrectly and then rejected it by
quoting a law which was not broken; thus there is no basis for
the fine and the PCN mst be cancelled.
>
--- End Quote ---
Original PCN pg.1
HTML https://i.imgur.com/6L9lyV3.jpeg
Notice of Rejection pg.1-7
HTML https://i.imgur.com/0Rsh7rg.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/73oNAQp.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/q5ymrWU.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/M6B9IK7.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/xa7bOPT.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/jLDyVrj.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/NQvGsk2.jpeg
Thanks very much for your time!
#Post#: 45971--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited - Homerton Ambulance Station
DIR By: John U.K.
Date: November 18, 2024, 3:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Rejection received 6/11/24, so 28 days from that is 4/12/24.
--- End Quote ---
NoR dated (Wednesday) 30th.October.
Deemed delivered (Friday) 1st.November = day 1 of 28 day period.
Last day of 28 day period Thursday 28th November.
#Post#: 45972--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited - Homerton Ambulance Station
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 18, 2024, 4:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The TfL rejection is total tosh (as usual !!). The offence is
entering the box then having to stop in the box due to the
presence of stationary vehicles.
Only thing is, you would seem not to have asked for the video,
so I suggest you do so now, because that is what the adjudicator
will view at London Tribunals. If you want our advice on going
to LT, it is essential we see the video. The photos show a
vehicle in the entrance to the ambulance station. Could it be
that you couldn't have driven in because this vehicle was
preventing you doing so ? If so then the contravention is made
out, but I have to say there does seem enough room to drive
behind it and into the station.
So the bottom line is, are you willing to take them to London
Tribunals ? They have re-offered the discount so you'd be
risking an additional £80, hence our need to see the video to
give best advice.
#Post#: 45977--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited - Homerton Ambulance Station
DIR By: prowla
Date: November 18, 2024, 4:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: John U.K. link ---
>
> [quote]Rejection received 6/11/24, so 28 days from that is
4/12/24.
--- End Quote ---
NoR dated (Wednesday) 30th.October.
Deemed delivered (Friday) 1st.November = day 1 of 28 day period.
Last day of 28 day period Thursday 28th November.
[/quote]
Thanks for that note; under "WHAT HAPPENS NEXT" the "Right to
appeal" instructions state "You have 28 days from receiving the
Enforcement Authority's Notice of Rejection to do so", so I took
that to mean it was the actual date of receipt rather than their
"deemed" malarky.
#Post#: 45979--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited - Homerton Ambulance Station
DIR By: prowla
Date: November 18, 2024, 4:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> The TfL rejection is total tosh (as usual !!). The offence is
entering the box then having to stop in the box due to the
presence of stationary vehicles.
>
> Only thing is, you would seem not to have asked for the video,
so I suggest you do so now, because that is what the adjudicator
will view at London Tribunals. If you want our advice on going
to LT, it is essential we see the video. The photos show a
vehicle in the entrance to the ambulance station. Could it be
that you couldn't have driven in because this vehicle was
preventing you doing so ? If so then the contravention is made
out, but I have to say there does seem enough room to drive
behind it and into the station.
>
> So the bottom line is, are you willing to take them to London
Tribunals ? They have re-offered the discount so you'd be
risking an additional £80, hence our need to see the video to
give best advice.
>
--- End Quote ---
I hadn't asked for the video - how do I do that, please?
I think the photos show there's enough space to get in, but if
the video helps then there's no harm in including it.
#Post#: 46001--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited - Homerton Ambulance Station
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: November 18, 2024, 6:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
You call TFL and they post the video to you on a DVD, which is
laughably silly these days but is what they do.
If you're going to appeal this the video is what the adjudicator
will judge the case on so you must see it first.
#Post#: 46011--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited - Homerton Ambulance Station
DIR By: prowla
Date: November 18, 2024, 7:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> You call TFL and they post the video to you on a DVD, which is
laughably silly these days but is what they do.
>
> If you're going to appeal this the video is what the
adjudicator will judge the case on so you must see it first.
>
--- End Quote ---
That is ridiculous! ;D
All part of their strategy to make things as drawn out as
possible and to eat into your appeal time, so that you might
just give up and accede to their demand for payment.
I don't know what it will show, but their rejection states that
the duration stationary was 8 seconds and their 3 pictures show
different pedestrians preventing access over that time.
Presumably anything outside of those 8 seconds isn't part of the
offence and so is out of scope.
#Post#: 46014--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited - Homerton Ambulance Station
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 18, 2024, 7:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Presumably anything outside of those 8 seconds isn't part of
the offence and so is out of scope.
--- End Quote ---
Yes, it's out-of-scope since their rejection response as this
has now fixed their case evidence if you go to London Tribunals,
which I assume you are going to do after such an appalling
reply.
#Post#: 46018--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited - Homerton Ambulance Station
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: November 18, 2024, 7:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
To be fair they put the case on hold while they send the DVD
usually for at least 14 days. If you log on to the PCN portal
you can also monitor the status.
#Post#: 47317--------------------------------------------------
Re: TfL - Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited - Homerton Ambulance Station
DIR By: prowla
Date: November 27, 2024, 12:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The request for the video has gone in, but there's been no
acknowledgement and no comment on the PCN status page.
Is it normal to hear nothing back?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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