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#Post#: 45865--------------------------------------------------
(bailiff stage) Liverpool City Council code 06 and code 34j
DIR By: ntown
Date: November 16, 2024, 6:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
I have had a howler and not got round to updating the address on
my V5C since moving home on March 8, 2024.
I had no knowledge of these PCNs until I opened a couple of
notice of enforcement letters earlier this evening summing up to
£350. The first one is odd, I would have thought they would
leave something physically on my car...
I have to wait until the website is back up tomorrow morning to
update the address.
Is the info in this
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/did-not-receive-pcn-and-one-year-later-got-3-notice-of-enforcement/msg41116/#msg41116<br
/>thread still the recommended course of action? i.e. just pay
the
bailiffs, send an Out-of-Time Witness Statement to the TEC and
hope the council somehow doesn't object, at which point I would
get refunded the £150 worth of compliance stage fees?
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 45866--------------------------------------------------
Re: (bailiff stage) Liverpool City Council code 06 and code 34j
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 16, 2024, 7:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The advice at this, the Compliance stage of the process, is
indeed to pay to avoid further charges; the bailiffs part of the
sum demanded is £140 the legal compliance stage fee. Submission
of an out-of-time Witness Statement (one for each PCN), is not
affected by your paying the bailiffs. Incidentally, bailiffs are
now legally called "enforcement agents" since 2014.
Whether an OOT WS would succeed is moot, because you have not
updated your V5C for 7 months, so you would need a cast-iron
reason for not doing so. Have you such a reason ?
If you don't pay, they can visit and add on £235 per PCN, and
finally start to take control of your property. Your car is
likely first for seizure, because they can only seize goods at
the address on the warrant, plus goods on the highway.
Extract from Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and
Enforcement Act 2007
--- Quote ---
> Goods which may be taken
> 9An enforcement agent may take control of goods only if they
are—
>
> (a)on premises that he has power to enter under this Schedule,
or
>
> (b)on a highway.
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 45867--------------------------------------------------
Re: (bailiff stage) Liverpool City Council code 06 and code 34j
DIR By: ntown
Date: November 16, 2024, 7:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> The advice at this, the Compliance stage of the process, is
indeed to pay to avoid further charges; the bailiffs part of the
sum demanded is £140 the legal compliance stage fee. Submission
of an out-of-time Witness Statement (one for each PCN), is not
affected by your paying the bailiffs. Incidentally, bailiffs are
now legally called "enforcement agents" since 2014.
>
> Whether an OOT WS would succeed is moot, because you have not
updated your V5C for 7 months, so you would need a cast-iron
reason for not doing so. Have you such a reason ?
>
> If you don't pay, they can visit and add on £235 per PCN, and
finally start to take control of your property. Your car is
likely first for seizure, because they can only seize goods at
the address on the warrant, plus goods on the highway.
>
> Extract from Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and
Enforcement Act 2007
>
> [quote]Goods which may be taken
> 9An enforcement agent may take control of goods only if they
are—
>
> (a)on premises that he has power to enter under this Schedule,
or
>
> (b)on a highway.
--- End Quote ---
[/quote]
Thank you for replying. I will pay the enforcement agents now.
And no, I do not have such a reason.
Is doing anything else on this a waste of time then?
If there are more outstanding PCNs, can I count on them arriving
once my V5C address change is processed or is there something
else I should do to avoid more nasty surprises?
#Post#: 45868--------------------------------------------------
Re: (bailiff stage) Liverpool City Council code 06 and code 34j
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: November 16, 2024, 8:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Incandescent has made a typo. The Bailiff Compliance Stage fees
for the Notices of Enforcement total £150 (2 x £75).
When enforcing more than one PCN the bailiff can only charge the
Enforcement Stage fee of £235 once, this applies here.
You're right a PCN should have been stuck to your windscreen for
the parking contravention. When that wasn't paid or challenged a
Notice to Owner would have been posted to the registered keeper
to the address held by the DVLA. The NTO couldn't have been
issued and posted until after you moved, so an OOT application
might stand more chance.
If your Out of Time applications were successful then you would
be put put back to the NTO stage for the parking contravention
and the postal PCN for the bus lane contravention.
You'll need a very good explanation as to why you are late with
your Statutory Declaration and Witness Statements.
If there are any outstanding PCNs out there then the notices
would have gone to the old RK address. This is because the
Enforcement Authorities would have asked the DVLA for the RK
details that applied on the date of contravention. Updating your
address won't on it's own cause them to be redirected to your
new address.
Any new contraventions, those that occur after you've updated
your address, would go to the updated address.
#Post#: 45870--------------------------------------------------
Re: (bailiff stage) Liverpool City Council code 06 and code 34j
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 17, 2024, 4:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
OP, as the authority must use your DVLA keeper address as at the
date of the contravention for all posted notices(in this case
the NTO, Charge Cert and OfR for parking and postal PCN, CC and
OfR for the bus lane) then it's the dates of the first of these
which are important. How much you can make of this depends upon
the dates themselves.
Nothing in the NoEs gives you these dates, so get online and see
if the NTO and postal PCN issue dates are given. If not, find
out from the authority - just ask for the info, not copies, and
pl don't be tempted to discuss the contraventions.
#Post#: 45871--------------------------------------------------
Re: (bailiff stage) Liverpool City Council code 06 and code 34j
DIR By: ntown
Date: November 17, 2024, 4:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Enceladus link ---
>
> Incandescent has made a typo. The Bailiff Compliance Stage
fees for the Notices of Enforcement total £150 (2 x £75).
>
> When enforcing more than one PCN the bailiff can only charge
the Enforcement Stage fee of £235 once, this applies here.
>
> You're right a PCN should have been stuck to your windscreen
for the parking contravention. When that wasn't paid or
challenged a Notice to Owner would have been posted to the
registered keeper to the address held by the DVLA. The NTO
couldn't have been issued and posted until after you moved, so
an OOT application might stand more chance.
>
> If your Out of Time applications were successful then you
would be put put back to the NTO stage for the parking
contravention and the postal PCN for the bus lane contravention.
>
> You'll need a very good explanation as to why you are late
with your Statutory Declaration and Witness Statements.
>
> If there are any outstanding PCNs out there then the notices
would have gone to the old RK address. This is because the
Enforcement Authorities would have asked the DVLA for the RK
details that applied on the date of contravention. Updating your
address won't on it's own cause them to be redirected to your
new address.
>
> Any new contraventions, those that occur after you've updated
your address, would go to the updated address.
>
--- End Quote ---
does ADHD (NHS diagnosed/repeat prescription for treatment)
count as a very good explanation/defene? I don't want to waste
my time if the chances are low
#Post#: 45874--------------------------------------------------
Re: (bailiff stage) Liverpool City Council code 06 and code 34j
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 17, 2024, 5:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Although changing keeper address data may be done online, it may
also be done by post. Nothing is held against an individual who
chooses the latter.
The official advice from DVLA is that if you have not received
your new log book within 4 weeks then contact them. I read this
to mean that a period of 4 weeks is taken as being a limbo
period and while I don't have specifics from the Traffic
Enforcement Centre(to whom you would submit your OOTs) I would
be surprised if they don't have a similar period.
Remember, if an authority requests keeper info while a change is
being processed then the old and out of date info would be
supplied. DVLA doesn't write to authorities after the event and
say 'you know that RK address we gave you on 5 October for a
contravention on 8 August, well we've changed it now w.e.f 7
August.'
Dates, dates, dates pl.
Your question cannot be answered without these.
#Post#: 45877--------------------------------------------------
Re: (bailiff stage) Liverpool City Council code 06 and code 34j
DIR By: ntown
Date: November 17, 2024, 5:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> OP, as the authority must use your DVLA keeper address as at
the date of the contravention for all posted notices(in this
case the NTO, Charge Cert and OfR for parking and postal PCN, CC
and OfR for the bus lane) then it's the dates of the first of
these which are important. How much you can make of this depends
upon the dates themselves.
>
> Nothing in the NoEs gives you these dates, so get online and
see if the NTO and postal PCN issue dates are given. If not,
find out from the authority - just ask for the info, not copies,
and pl don't be tempted to discuss the contraventions.
>
--- End Quote ---
By "get online" do you mean check if I can see info on
HTML https://parking.liverpool.gov.uk/pcn/?
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> Although changing keeper address data may be done online, it
may also be done by post. Nothing is held against an individual
who chooses the latter.
>
> The official advice from DVLA is that if you have not received
your new log book within 4 weeks then contact them. I read this
to mean than a period of 4 weeks is taken as being a limbo
period and while I don't have specifics from the Traffic
Enforcement Centre(to whom you would submit your OOTs) I would
be surprised if they don't have a similar period.
> Remember, if an authority requests keeper info while a change
is being processed then the old and out of date info would be
supplied. DVLA doesn't write to authorities after the event and
say 'you know that RK address we gave you on 5 October for a
contravention on 8 August, well we've changed it now w.e.f 7
August.'
>
> Dates, dates, dates pl.
>
> Your question cannot be answered without these.
>
--- End Quote ---
Does this still matter if I only just updated the V5C now ? i.e.
if the dates you mention are before/close to my moving date then
the case is stronger because I would still be in this position
had I updated my V5C on time?
#Post#: 45879--------------------------------------------------
Re: (bailiff stage) Liverpool City Council code 06 and code 34j
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 17, 2024, 5:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Enceladus link ---
>
> Incandescent has made a typo. The Bailiff Compliance Stage
fees for the Notices of Enforcement total £150 (2 x £75).
>
--- End Quote ---
Definitely !! I can do arithmetic
#Post#: 45889--------------------------------------------------
Re: (bailiff stage) Liverpool City Council code 06 and code 34j
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 17, 2024, 8:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Does this still matter if I only just updated the V5C now
YES. As I explained in detail, even if you had changed your RK
address the day after the NTO and postal PCN were issued it
would have been too late. Only the address at the time of the
breaches may be and is used by the authority.
The enforcement agent may and does use other tracing methods and
databases. Two different pieces of legislation.
Would you pl just get online or phone them and come back with
what's required.
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