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#Post#: 45035--------------------------------------------------
NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform with
regulations
DIR By: ft_sjo
Date: November 11, 2024, 8:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi all. I've received the below letter in the post, NIP with a
demand to identify the driver. Whilst I appreciate this is
£100/no points to make go away, I feel I would like to view the
evidence and potentially challenge it. I believe I know where
the camera was which will be used for evidence reasons, and if
this is true then I do not believe it could have caught adequate
evidence to prove the registration did not conform to
regulations.
.
The registration mark meets the regulations, but its placement
may be challenged (it's offset to one side). Whilst you can
definitely read it at 45 degrees from one side of the vehicle,
it may be tricky from the other side (think alfa romeo plate to
the side kind of setup). The evidence camera would have been on
the side of the road where the plate is facing, so absolutely no
way they could tell that it may not be visible from the obtuse
angle (+90 degrees laterally).
.
I assume I should proceed with supplying driver details? £100 is
cheaper than £1000...
.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 45039--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform
with regulations
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: November 11, 2024, 9:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> I do not believe it could have caught adequate evidence to
prove the registration did not conform to regulations.
--- End Quote ---
I don't quite understand what your argument is.
I assume you are not disputing it was your car. That being the
case, the camera was sufficiently well placed to capture its
registration mark or you would not have received the notice.
Whatever issues you have with the allegation itself you must
respond to the request for driver's details.
#Post#: 45046--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform
with regulations
DIR By: baroudeur
Date: November 11, 2024, 9:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Is there a photo? It's doubtful there would be enough details
of the plate regarding maker/supplier/ BS marks from a fixed
camera photograph 'cos hundreds of 'iffy' plates must be flashed
every day
Regarding how the plate is attached the regs for display are
The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations
2001
where one corner of the square is immediately below the middle
of the plate and the diagonal of the square from that corner is
parallel to the longitudinal axis of the vehicle;
The diagonal length of the relevant area is—
(a)in the case of a mark having characters the width of which is
at least 57 millimetres, 22 metres,
(ip refers tob)in the case of a mark having characters the width
of which is 50 millimetres, 21.5 metres,
n
(c)in the case of a mark having characters the width of which is
44 millimetres, 18 metres.
But the NIP does not refer to "display"
#Post#: 45051--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform
with regulations
DIR By: ft_sjo
Date: November 11, 2024, 10:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: baroudeur link ---
>
> Is there a photo? It's doubtful there would be enough details
of the plate regarding maker/supplier/ BS marks from a fixed
camera photograph 'cos hundreds of 'iffy' plates must be flashed
every day
>
--- End Quote ---
I have no idea what evidence there is yet, I assume I will be
able to see that once I identify the driver. I'm familiar with
the regs you posted and as above, it's possible that it only
meets the diagonal view from one angle, not t'other. BUT how
would they prove that with a photo from one angle? That's going
to be my point in the future, I suspect.
#Post#: 45055--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform
with regulations
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: November 11, 2024, 10:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Apologies, I understand where you are coming from now.
--- Quote ---
> I have no idea what evidence there is yet, I assume I will be
able to see that once I identify the driver.
--- End Quote ---
No you won't. If you are offered a fixed penalty you either
accept the allegation as it stands or you decline (or ignore)
the offer and face prosecution in court. Only then will you be
provided with he evidence the police intend to rely on to
convict you.
If you intend to do that you need to make sure you are fully
familiar with the regs because failure will be very expensive.
This diagram explains it:
HTML https://ibb.co/Cw0qfSB
The point of area from which the plate needs to be readable is
beneath the centre point of the plate, not the car so you need
to bear that in mind if your plate is offset.
#Post#: 45072--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform
with regulations
DIR By: ft_sjo
Date: November 11, 2024, 12:03 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: NewJudge link ---
>
> Apologies, I understand where you are coming from now.
>
> [quote]I have no idea what evidence there is yet, I assume I
will be able to see that once I identify the driver.
--- End Quote ---
No you won't. If you are offered a fixed penalty you either
accept the allegation as it stands or you decline (or ignore)
the offer and face prosecution in court. Only then will you be
provided with he evidence the police intend to rely on to
convict you.
If you intend to do that you need to make sure you are fully
familiar with the regs because failure will be very expensive.
This diagram explains it:
HTML https://ibb.co/Cw0qfSB
The point of area from which the plate needs to be readable is
beneath the centre point of the plate, not the car so you need
to bear that in mind if your plate is offset.
[/quote]
Thanks, I am not sure I am interpreting your drawing properly.
This is my interpretation of the regulations below. It's
interesting that you point out it's based on the location of the
plate, not the centre of the car (of course not ALL cars have
the plate mounted centrally). Whilst that is of slight benefit
in my case, potentially, it may not be enough. However, I still
want to know how they can prove the contravention by having a
single point of view from the roadside.
I've also included an indicative photo of the plate location
from the front perspective.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 45078--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform
with regulations
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: November 11, 2024, 12:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Thanks, I am not sure I am interpreting your drawing properly.
This is my interpretation of the regulations below.
--- End Quote ---
We're singing from the same hymn sheet. It's just that your
diagram does not limit the area of the square from which the
characters must be distinguished.
The 21.5m "diagonal" defines the size of the square. That 21.5m
applies where 50mm characters are used. There is a different
measurement when other sizes of characters are used. The
regulation actually says this:
In this Part the following expressions shall have the following
meanings—
“diagonal length”, in relation to a relevant area, means the
length of a line drawn diagonally across the square enclosing
the area (so that the extent of the relevant area is thereby
delimited);
#Post#: 45140--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform
with regulations
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: November 11, 2024, 4:46 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If you are replying to the previous post in its entirety, there
is no need to quote it!
#Post#: 45188--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform
with regulations
DIR By: baroudeur
Date: November 12, 2024, 6:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The NIP refers to Vehicle Excise & Registration Act 1994. The
section appropriate seems to be
"The Secretary of State may by regulations prescribe—
(a)the size, shape and character of registration marks to be
fixed on any vehicle, and
(b)the manner in which registration marks are to be displayed
and rendered easily distinguishable (whether by day or by
night)."
Why are you so sure it's a fixed camera involved? It seems
strange thata relatively minor offence would warrant such
attention. Is there more to this matter than appears at first
reading?
#Post#: 45223--------------------------------------------------
Re: NIP/s172 received for registration mark fails to conform
with regulations
DIR By: RichardW
Date: November 12, 2024, 8:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: baroudeur link ---
>
> It seems strange that a relatively minor offence would warrant
such attention. Is there more to this matter than appears at
first reading?
>
--- End Quote ---
That was my thought too... Is it on the plate it was MOT'd on?
It's presumably been unreadable by the computer and flagged for
human intervention, so unlikely it is a minor technical
infringement on placement.
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