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#Post#: 44911--------------------------------------------------
Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
DIR By: LoneStartState
Date: November 10, 2024, 10:47 am
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Hello regulars
PCN received by my brother while in Milton Keynes for acting
rehearsals at the Leonardo Hotel. Chronology:
He parked up and believed he had paid by phone for a session
from 8:49 to 16:49. Later on in the day he realised the payment
hadn't gone through and tried again without success around
10:30.
He then went out to pay for a ticket at the machine during a
break that began at 10:40am due to the online payment issues.
He saw his car but didn't notice anyone at the time and may have
missed the CEO by a mere minute or so.
There were 3 people in front of him at the machine and so he got
a ticket for his vehicle with a timestamp of 10:49am. Given he
was in a rush to get back to the hotel, he only noticed the PCN
tucked in the corner of the windscreen at the end of the day.
It should be noted this was the first time he had ever parked
here and so the contravention code is incorrect and should have
been an 06 instead of an 05 which I assume is a PI on the part
of the council.
I'm guessing a code 05 contravention should have afforded him a
10 minute observation period which would have given him time to
put the ticket into the car while the CEO was present?
Obviously an error on the part of the CEO but nonetheless their
muck up.
The location in question:
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/vmxe1vGovLZDxPyx5
The PCN front and back:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/kLbZyOJ.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/tE81bbi.jpeg
The P+D ticket:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/HAgHuVA.jpeg
CEO photos:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/NDg3xJX.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/Bg0uHuL.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/kPMN8iz.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/jc7w3Np.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/4FvNZJy.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/JN6Svum.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/cCzji4e.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/ZHssPLL.jpeg
I'll draft some initial reps but guess I wasn't sure if it was
best to just state what happened as above or just highlight that
time was paid for eight minutes after the CEO logged the
contravention and plea for discretion while also highlighting
the contravention did not occur due to the incorrect code?
Any input appreciated.
#Post#: 44934--------------------------------------------------
Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: November 10, 2024, 12:36 pm
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Are you sure he didn't pay for a shorter session that expired.
If yes then it's an easy win on wrong contravention.
#Post#: 45174--------------------------------------------------
Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
DIR By: LoneStartState
Date: November 12, 2024, 4:51 am
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--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> Are you sure he didn't pay for a shorter session that expired.
>
--- End Quote ---
This is the session he repeatedly tried to pay for without
success.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/mtUseJg.jpeg
I'll double check with him but I'm confident no shorter session
was paid for.
I also did some digging and MK council give the following
insight regarding PCNs:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/9PQigjR.jpeg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/33J1sI1.jpeg
I also note in the second screenshot they stipulate 5 minutes
grace to pay for a ticket and worryingly gives reasons they will
not cancel a PCN which strikes me as pre-empting fettering of
discretion.
I'll come back and 100% confirm no prior sessions/shorter
sessions etc were ever bought.
#Post#: 45714--------------------------------------------------
Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
DIR By: LoneStartState
Date: November 15, 2024, 6:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
So as always, with full information it is clear what has
happened.
So my brother did have a Ringo session for parking in Milton
Keynes that he paid for on the 5th to cover 2 hours on the
morning of the 6th that would have expired at 9am.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/JO6y1XZ.jpeg
However the location he parked at marked by the turquoise star
below, while sharing the same location code, was over 250m from
where he then parked on the 6th marked by the red star. He
didn't notice that the location code was the same when trying to
pay (and realistically wouldn't have expected it given the
different street and significant distance - a man on the Clapham
Ominbus may well agree) but utlimately couldn't pay by phone
anyways and subsequently used the machine getting the ticket 8
minutes after the CEO had written theirs.
[img width=1100
height=624]
HTML https://i.imgur.com/FB3dTg4.jpeg?1[/img]
I guess this is a unique feature of Milton Keynes's urban
planning whereby large swathes of the city centre blocks all
fall under the same location code.
I'll prepare a draft focussing more on discretion given the
above.
#Post#: 45722--------------------------------------------------
Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: November 15, 2024, 6:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes as I suspected.
It's actually good to have one location code for lots of parking
as we see ridiculous PCNs in London where codes can vary in
almost adjoining bays.
The upside here is it's the cheapest penalty - £25 at discount
if you have to pay.
But there's a good case for discretion on the confusion with the
overrun to the next morning and your brother was acting in good
faith with the system.
#Post#: 50586--------------------------------------------------
Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
DIR By: LoneStartState
Date: December 20, 2024, 9:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Small update
Informal reps were submitted, albeit outside the discount
window. Rejection unsurprisingly received. They've seemed to
have missed the wood for the trees but expected at this stage.
Awaiting NTO.
Reps were submitted as follows:
Dear Milton Keynes Council
On the evening of the 5th November I arrived and parked near the
EasyHotel just off Silbury Road in Milton Keynes city centre and
promptly paid by phone to cover parking into the morning of the
6th prior to me departing the hotel. The location I parked is
marked in the attachment “MK parking locations” with the light
blue star. This is the first time I have visited the city. I
have evidence of my hotel booking for that evening also
attached.
Later on the morning of the 6th I parked in the Witan Gate East
location near Genesis House as I needed to take items to the
Leonardo hotel where I would be taking part in acting rehearsals
for Christmas themed events as Santa Claus. This is marked in
the attachment “MK parking locations”.
When parking at the Witan Gate East location I walked toward the
Leonardo Hotel and tried numerous times to pay by phone with
Ringo as I had done the prior evening when I parked near the
EasyHotel just off Silbury Road. Given the distance between the
two parking locations (250m or so), I did not realise that the
location code for both of those areas was the same on the signs.
After a number of failed attempts to pay by phone where the
transaction would freeze I gave up and returned to the pay and
display machine on Witan Gate East, approximately 60-65metres
from where my vehicle was parked. There were three people
queuing before me to purchase a pay and display ticket, one of
whom was particularly slow. I did however finally manage to pay
for a ticket which I have attached with these representations,
timestamped at 10:49 to cover 6 hours of parking, 8 minutes
after the PCN issued by your CEO. I didn’t notice a CEO around
my vehicle at the time I tried to pay and seems I might have
missed them by only a couple of minutes or so. Had I seen them,
I would have approached them and mentioned my issues and that I
was in the process of getting a physical ticket.
It seems I was also caught out by the fact that Witan Gate East
and the parking near the EasyHotel shared the same location
code, which is typically unusual for other towns and cities,
where even opposite sides of the road can have different codes.
This unfortunately meant I was not aware that I technically had
a parking session that already applied for Witan Gate East and
as such would have an even shorter amount of grace period in
which to pay for time.
I would be grateful if you exercised discretion, given the good
faith shown in trying to obtain a ticket via pay by phone and
then getting a physical ticket when that failed.
The gap in time of merely 8 minutes between the issuance of the
PCN and the purchase of the physical ticket to cover a 6 hour
parking session also strikes me as being a de minimis or trivial
contravention.
I hope with the information above, you can find grounds to
cancel the PCN in this instance.
Their rejection:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/0plYgoL.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/vqDd2Tf.png
#Post#: 50590--------------------------------------------------
Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: December 20, 2024, 10:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Your challenge was rather too long and convoluted but their
response is reasonable given the very long gap in starting a new
session.
As the discount hasn't been reoffered no reason not to go on to
NTO but you need to focus on something in say two paras that
they must consider such as issues with Ringgo.
#Post#: 53729--------------------------------------------------
Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
DIR By: LoneStartState
Date: January 16, 2025, 5:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
NTO received yesterday. See below
HTML https://i.imgur.com/QIEpR3k.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/wNRDHnb.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/LWrmUuD.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/pEcB0um.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/SgpyBuv.png
First glance I can't see any glaring issues with it but will
check more thoroughly tomorrow and any pointers welcome. Will
post up more concise reps here before submitting.
Does earlier submission of reps increase chance of them
re-offering the discount or is it just policy to encourage
payment over tribunal regardless of when reps are submitted
within the 28 day window?
#Post#: 53739--------------------------------------------------
Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: January 16, 2025, 5:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Does earlier submission of reps increase chance of them
re-offering the discount or is it just policy to encourage
payment over tribunal regardless of when reps are submitted
within the 28 day window?
--- End Quote ---
The regulations give you 28 days and you are entitled to use the
full 28, but do be aware that reps have to be received within
the 28 days, not just sent off.
Of course if they don't re-offer the discount, it is a total
no-brainer to take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. If you
lose you pay the full PCN penalty, which the council retain, but
they have to pay the adjudication fee and also prepare the
evidence pack so it's not a total win for them. And of course,
if you win, you pay nothing but the council still have to pay
those costs.
#Post#: 57338--------------------------------------------------
Re: Milton Keynes Witan Gate Pay and Display Code 05
DIR By: LoneStartState
Date: February 9, 2025, 4:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
So reps are due by midnight on the 12th. Here's what I have
drafted and appreciate it still may be a bit long:
Dear Milton Keynes Council
On the 5th of November, I drove into Milton Keynes and parked
near the EasyHotel just off Silbury Road where I was staying
overnight as marked with the blue star in the attachment “MK
Parking locations”. This would have been the first time I had
ever visited the city.
Later on the morning of the 6th I moved and parked my vehicle at
the Witan Gate East location given in the PCN as I needed to
take some bulky items to the Leonardo hotel for acting
rehearsals as Santa Claus. I genuinely thought I had paid by
phone via Ringo for a new parking session in a different
location. Not familiar with MK city centre, I did not realise
Witan Gate East and the EasyHotel location in fact shared the
same location code (even though they are hundreds of metres
apart) for pay by phone and that my Ringo session had not
actually gone through, presumably as I was trying to book the
session from a start time that overlapped into the end of my 5th
November parking session.
I tried multiple times to pay for the 6th November parking
session. With mounting frustration, I took a screenshot of the
session I had tried to book at 10:33am to cover the prior time I
had intended to pay for, before any CEO issued ticket, attached
in the file “Ringo 6th November Attempt”. Upon the
transaction/payment screen once again freezing, I gave up and
returned to the car park to pay at a machine about 60-65m from
my vehicle. There was a queue of 3 people before me, one of
whom was slow to purchase a ticket. I finally managed to get a
ticket at 10:49, 8 minutes after the PCN time, for 6 hours of
parking to cover the rest of the day.
I would be grateful if you exercised discretion, given the good
faith shown in persistently trying to obtain a ticket via pay by
phone and then getting a physical ticket when that repeatedly
failed.
As an aside, their online representation portal seems to not
list any statutory grounds, I'm guessing not worth adding a
point about that at this stage?
HTML https://i.imgur.com/Skap63c.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/hVXPxtV.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/Tyzx2bO.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/I18G7sc.png
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