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#Post#: 3144--------------------------------------------------
Harrow, code 33E using a restricted route, Headstone Lane
DIR By: Nayur79
Date: August 12, 2023, 11:46 am
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Good morning,
Long shot but wondering if anyone cane help. My wife received a
PCN from Harrow Council regarding passing through a bus gate. I
have attached a copy of the front of PCN for information.
I have seen that there have been previous posts on this, however
from looking at signage it looks like there have been
improvements to the signage.
The other point to consider is that the contravention occurred
on the 27th July, however we did not receive the PCN until the
10th August which is the 14th day after the contravention,
although the PCN is dated the 7th August. I thought that you
need to receive the PCN within 14 days of the contravention but
I may be wrong on this.
The other point I noticed is that while the sign states the
middle bus gate is restricted to the use by buses, cycles and
taxis only, the road-markings only state buses?
Any thoughts on whether I would stand a chance on a successful
appeal and the basis of such?
[attachimg=1]
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 3152--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow, code 33E using a restricted route, Headstone Lane
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: August 12, 2023, 3:28 pm
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--- Quote ---
> The other point to consider is that the contravention occurred
on the 27th July, however we did not receive the PCN until the
10th August which is the 14th day after the contravention,
although the PCN is dated the 7th August. I thought that you
need to receive the PCN within 14 days of the contravention but
I may be wrong on this.
--- End Quote ---
Sorry to tell you, but you're wrong. They have 28 days from
contravention date.
--- Quote ---
> Any thoughts on whether I would stand a chance on a successful
appeal and the basis of such?
--- End Quote ---
So far it doesn't look hopeful from your narrative, but whether
there is a good appeal argument can only be known when we have
seen the video, the sole evidence of the alleged contravention.
SO please post it here. One or two people on here can get it for
you if you give them the PCN Number and vehicle reg number.
Doesn't the PCN tell you how to see it ?
#Post#: 3242--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow, code 33E using a restricted route, Headstone Lane
DIR By: Nayur79
Date: August 14, 2023, 1:55 pm
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--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> [quote]The other point to consider is that the contravention
occurred on the 27th July, however we did not receive the PCN
until the 10th August which is the 14th day after the
contravention, although the PCN is dated the 7th August. I
thought that you need to receive the PCN within 14 days of the
contravention but I may be wrong on this.
> Sorry to tell you, but you're wrong. They have 28 days from
contravention date.
--- End Quote ---
Ok noted thanks, sorry must have mis read something.
--- Quote ---
> Any thoughts on whether I would stand a chance on a successful
appeal and the basis of such?
--- End Quote ---
So far it doesn't look hopeful from your narrative, but whether
there is a good appeal argument can only be known when we have
seen the video, the sole evidence of the alleged contravention.
SO please post it here. One or two people on here can get it for
you if you give them the PCN Number and vehicle reg number.
Doesn't the PCN tell you how to see it ?
[/quote]
The PCN states that I can see additional images from the Harrow
website but nothing about video evidence? Looking at their
evidence, this needs to be requested and they will send by post.
So have requested this now. I will post the additional images
but don't think they help much.
#Post#: 3245--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow, code 33E using a restricted route, Headstone Lane
DIR By: Nayur79
Date: August 14, 2023, 2:03 pm
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Furtehr to my earlier post, here are the other images from the
Harrow website. [attach=1][attach=2][attach=3]
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 3251--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow, code 33E using a restricted route, Headstone Lane
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: August 14, 2023, 4:11 pm
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Hm, looks pretty damning to me ! Why on earth did your wife
ignore the correct route and go through the bus gate ? Only
thing the video does not show are the signs on the approach.
Please post a GSV link that shows them, (assuming GSV is
up-to-date).
#Post#: 3264--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow, code 33E using a restricted route, Headstone Lane
DIR By: Nayur79
Date: August 15, 2023, 2:30 am
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--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> Hm, looks pretty damning to me ! Why on earth did your wife
ignore the correct route and go through the bus gate ? Only
thing the video does not show are the signs on the approach.
Please post a GSV link that shows them, (assuming GSV is
up-to-date).
>
--- End Quote ---
I've already had the discussion as to why you would go through
the bus gate when its marked as such!
Link for streetview as per below, but shows both bus restriction
signs in place. Clutching at straws here but as part of the
evidence do they not need to show at the time the signs were in
place? So a picture from the side that entry was made into the
bus gate. I must admit that their picture does show the back of
the signs but you can't see the signs themselves?
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/QQp6Ygm432H1YDS19
Also can I ask how did you review the video evidence, I have
just requested this?
#Post#: 3275--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow, code 33E using a restricted route, Headstone Lane
DIR By: Nayur79
Date: August 15, 2023, 6:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Nayur79 link ---
>
> [quote author=Incandescent link=topic=381.msg3152#msg3152
date=1691872086]
> [quote]The other point to consider is that the contravention
occurred on the 27th July, however we did not receive the PCN
until the 10th August which is the 14th day after the
contravention, although the PCN is dated the 7th August. I
thought that you need to receive the PCN within 14 days of the
contravention but I may be wrong on this.
> Sorry to tell you, but you're wrong. They have 28 days from
contravention date.
--- End Quote ---
Ok noted thanks, sorry must have mis read something.
--- Quote ---
> Any thoughts on whether I would stand a chance on a successful
appeal and the basis of such?
--- End Quote ---
So far it doesn't look hopeful from your narrative, but whether
there is a good appeal argument can only be known when we have
seen the video, the sole evidence of the alleged contravention.
SO please post it here. One or two people on here can get it for
you if you give them the PCN Number and vehicle reg number.
Doesn't the PCN tell you how to see it ?
[/quote]
The PCN states that I can see additional images from the Harrow
website but nothing about video evidence? Looking at their
evidence, this needs to be requested and they will send by post.
So have requested this now. I will post the additional images
but don't think they help much.
[/quote]
I have the video footage now, how can I attach as file will
exceed the allowable limit?
#Post#: 3276--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow, code 33E using a restricted route, Headstone Lane
DIR By: Nayur79
Date: August 15, 2023, 6:52 am
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The video shows the vehicle driving through the bus gate but as
per my earlier point, you can not see the signs facing towards
the driver, similar to the photos. You can see that signs are in
place as you can see the backs of them but you can not see the
sign face itself. Long shot but could you argue that the
contravention did not occur as there was no signage and let them
prove that the signs were in place?
Not sure if they have cameras on the opposite side which would
show the signage and I assume if they highlight these then my
penalty may well double and I may not have the option to pay the
reduced half price of £65.
#Post#: 3285--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow, code 33E using a restricted route, Headstone Lane
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: August 15, 2023, 8:47 am
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Whilst you can use this argument, (video doesn't show the signs
that were passed), they will reject your reps and say the signs
are all present and correct. you would have to then take them to
London Tribunals with the full PCN penalty in play. The council
will then present library photos together with a witness
statement that they are present at the location. An adjudicator
decides cases using the civil law test of "on the balance of
probabilities". To be frank, I cannot see any credible appeal
argument, and the discount looks your best option.
#Post#: 3311--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow, code 33E using a restricted route, Headstone Lane
DIR By: Nayur79
Date: August 15, 2023, 2:09 pm
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--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> Whilst you can use this argument, (video doesn't show the
signs that were passed), they will reject your reps and say the
signs are all present and correct. you would have to then take
them to London Tribunals with the full PCN penalty in play. The
council will then present library photos together with a witness
statement that they are present at the location. An adjudicator
decides cases using the civil law test of "on the balance of
probabilities". To be frank, I cannot see any credible appeal
argument, and the discount looks your best option.
>
--- End Quote ---
Fair point and deep down I think I knew I'd have to pay. Will
just pay the discounted amount.
Can I ask how you accessed the video though?
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