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#Post#: 44749--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: Alan
Date: November 9, 2024, 9:22 am
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--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> The enforcement agents are agents of the council. All matters
pertaining to their actions may be taken up with the council.
>
> Any sensible agent would ask their principal about the
circumstances which gave rise to a warrant because these can
vary e.g. a known person and whereabouts who's exhausted the
appeals procedure but refuses to pay to someone about whom the
authority know nothing, no response to any notices and,
effectively, a warrant issued in default etc. IMO, the agent is
under a legal duty to check that the person named in the warrant
actually lives at the premises specified. If they don't, then
it's reasonable to assume that a NoE would not be served albeit
posted.
>
> In your case, you're not a Russian spy and have credit
agreements(my reference to this was not in the context of how
these might be affected by your situation, rather that your head
is above the metaphorical tracing parapet and your correct
address could easily be established by the bailiffs) therefore
there is no reason, other than idleness, why a NoE was not
served on you at your current address. (being forwarded by a
third party is not service because this relies upon a legal
presumption that service is effected in accordance with the
Interpretation Act unless a higher standard is imposed under
specific regulations - in short 2 working days after posting by
first-class post when correctly addressed to the named person).
Yours was not, it was addressed to a property where you do not
reside.
>
> They cannot add a sale fee because none of your goods is at
the premises on the warrant(are they??) therefore there's
nothing to seize or remove and auction.
>
> You must conduct matters in writing pl, even when this
confirms telephone calls with named people.
>
> I don't agree with the draft because IMO it doesn't scope the
current situation fully.
>
> Re PCN ********
> I have become aware that the council have engaged the services
of CDER** to enforce a warrant of control against me in respect
of a PCN issued by the council on ******. As you are aware, you
did not receive any communications from me regarding this PCN
because at the time it was issued I was not resident at *****.
In fact I moved on ******. Consequently, none of the notices,
including the Order for Recovery, was served.
>
> I accept that this was due to the council being advised by
DVLA that, as registered keeper, **** was my address for these
purposes and I apologise for not keeping these details current.
Nonetheless, none of your notices was received and I shall be
taking up this matter with the Traffic Enforcement Centre. As a
consequence of you not being aware of my correct address, your
agent, ****, has similarly not served any of their statutory
notices. While I accept that the council are bound to use DVLA
data unless notified to the contrary, the same does not apply to
your agent who has already attended the wrong property despite
them not receiving any response to their wrongly-addressed NoE.
Had they undertaken their duties in a diligent manner they would
have discovered my present address with ease. I also suspect
that they have not made you aware of this issue, which means
that the warrant remains defective.
>
> They are seeking to charge me £75 Compliance Fee and £235
Enforcement Fee on the basis of these failings.
>
> ..I would end with I am prepared to bring enforcement of the
warrant to a conclusion by paying the Compliance Fee on receipt
of a NoE addressed to me as follows:
>
> ********
> ********
>
> As regards the underlying PCN, I shall engage with the 'put of
time' procedure.
>
> Others will have views.
>
> Should CDER attend your property in the meantime, check their
warrant and if defective politely tell them to get this
rectified. I would also copy your letter to CDER.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you HC Andersen for the detailed clarification and the
draft you've provided, very helpful.
Do I also contact the TEC and submit the TE7 now?
As I posted earlier, my current concern is if the bailiffs do
find out my current address and turn up at the door with a
correct address Warrant (they may know of my new address from my
letter to the Council and also having updated my V5C with the
new address). In such a case, what recourse do I have in terms
of what I do need to ask from them to ensure they are following
all the necessary steps, to avoid them taking goods, forcing us
to pay the fine, or worse clamp the car. For e.g. I still don't
have a NoE on the new address? Should I ask for that?
#Post#: 44756--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: November 9, 2024, 10:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Please post up the latest draft of what you want to say on the
TE7 Out of Time application. IE why are you late with the
Witness Statement (TE9) and deserving of extra time. The merits
of the original PCN are not relevant.
Then scan the TE7 and TE9 forms to two PDFs and attach them to
an email to the Traffic Enforcement Centre. Put Witness
Statement Out of Time application PCN Nr?????? in the subject
line.
You should get an Acknowledgement email within a couple of
minutes from the TEC. That's confirming your email as received,
not that the contents are process yet which might take five or
six weeks.
But post the draft on here before you submit, you only get one
shot at it.
#Post#: 44760--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 9, 2024, 11:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
They cannot enforce against your correct address because you've
not been served with Notices of Enforcement. And if the warrant
is changed, then fresh NoEs are required.
#Post#: 44776--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: Pressman
Date: November 9, 2024, 11:45 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It is prudent to refrain from providing your phone number.
Maintaining all communications in writing ensures you have a
record that may be repurposed in future proceedings if
necessary.
Additionally, I advise against disclosing your current address
at this stage, as doing so could prompt bailiffs to visit before
Reading has the opportunity to respond to your Rule 6 notice.
Such premature enforcement attempts would only introduce
unnecessary legal complexities, potentially undermining your
position. By exercising caution and allowing sufficient time for
the authority to respond to the Rule 6 notice, you ensure that
all procedural rights are respected, thus strengthening your
overall case.
The PE3 and TE9 scheme administered by the Traffic Enforcement
Centre (TEC) is structured to serve the authority's interests
rather than yours. Given the clear deficiencies in the warrant,
it is in your best interest to leave it unamended, as CDER is
unable to act upon it lawfully without incurring liability for
any resulting breach.
#Post#: 44786--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 9, 2024, 1:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The PE3 and TE9 scheme administered by the Traffic Enforcement
Centre (TEC) is structured to serve the authority's interests
rather than yours.
A rather jaundiced view IMO.
The purpose of the 'TEC' procedure is to address any 'breakdown
in communication' between authorities and owners(exactly the
language used in the Chief Adjudicator's 2023/2024 report to the
other TEC - Transport and Environment Committee of London
Councils).
If this breakdown extends to the OfR, then you're into 'out of
time' territory which is not designed to relieve owners who fail
to keep the DVLA up to date as obliged.
By not providing correct contact details you invite the
continuation of the breakdown in communications. If one looks at
this from the perspective of equity, why should an owner who
fails to maintain DVLA details and then knowingly fails to
remedy this as best they can by providing correct details be
relieved of the consequences?
#Post#: 44802--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: Pressman
Date: November 9, 2024, 2:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> The PE3 and TE9 scheme administered by the Traffic Enforcement
Centre (TEC) is structured to serve the authority's interests
rather than yours.
>
>
> A rather jaundiced view IMO.
>
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Could you please clarify the basis for describing my view as
jaundiced?
#Post#: 44803--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 9, 2024, 3:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Because it is not so structured.
But if you think it is, this is your choice.
I'd rather not discuss here because your and my views of TEC
aren't really central to the OP's situation.
#Post#: 44812--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: November 9, 2024, 4:06 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Pressman link ---
>
> Some argue that it is always the debtor's fault for not
updating their V5 with the DVLA, but this is not accurate. Only
the DVLA has the authority to handle such matters under Section
59 of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 and Part 7 of
the Criminal Procedure Rules 2020. Neither the council nor
enforcement agents have the authority to claim you are at fault,
as this is exclusively reserved for the DVLA in its
prosecutorial capacity.
>
--- End Quote ---
That's some mighty fine horsesh*t you've got there.
#Post#: 44962--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: Alan
Date: November 10, 2024, 3:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you Enceladus, Pressman and HC Andersen,
I have sent off the letter to the Reading Council based on all
your suggestions (quoted Rule 6 requesting them to stop
enforcement having provided more context to the reasons for the
delay and other terms preventing the bailiffs to enforce i.e.
Regulation 3 of The Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations
2014 and National Standards 2014 (Paragraphs 8, 12, and 16),
Paragraph 66 of Schedule 12 for relief from the Council's
enforcement ). I will update as I receive the response.
Here is my draft for the TE7 (Reasons for more time). Please
advise if this reads correctly and happy to take your guidance
if any modifications are required.
TE7 form Witness reasons
I request more time as the original contravention happened on
the xxxxxx and subsequently PCN was issued by the Council,
thereafter. I was not a resident at the address, thereby, I did
not receive any notices from the Council including the Order for
Recovery or had the opportunity to respond to those. I moved
from this property in xxxxxx and I accept that the new address
was not updated on the V5C (although the Driver License was
promptly updated). This resulted in DVLA sharing my previous
address and I apologise for not keeping these details current.
The request to amend the V5C has now been made. I would like to
reiterate that I would have paid the original PCN fee on time
had I received it to my current address. I only found out when
the new residents of my previous property shared letters under
my name that had the communication from the bailiffs
For the TE9 form I am assuming I will be ticking the option I
did not receive the Notice to Owner / Penalty Charge Notice
On the TE9, are the Respondant and Applicant the same person (as
in the person that the PCN / bailiff's have addressed the comms
to?)
Finally, are there any other forms to be completed, e.g. PE3?
but I would need this to be sworn before a Solicitor?
To reconfirm, is the email address for TEC for submitting the
completed TE7 and TE9 - tec@justice.gov.uk?
#Post#: 45111--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: Alan
Date: November 11, 2024, 2:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Enceladus link ---
>
> Please post up the latest draft of what you want to say on the
TE7 Out of Time application. IE why are you late with the
Witness Statement (TE9) and deserving of extra time. The merits
of the original PCN are not relevant.
>
> Then scan the TE7 and TE9 forms to two PDFs and attach them to
an email to the Traffic Enforcement Centre. Put Witness
Statement Out of Time application PCN Nr?????? in the subject
line.
>
> You should get an Acknowledgement email within a couple of
minutes from the TEC. That's confirming your email as received,
not that the contents are process yet which might take five or
six weeks.
>
> But post the draft on here before you submit, you only get one
shot at it.
>
--- End Quote ---
Hi Enceladus, just wondering if you had the chance to review the
draft below. Thank you
TE7 form Witness reasons
I request more time as the original contravention happened on
the xxxxxx and subsequently PCN was issued by the Council,
thereafter. I was not a resident at the address, thereby, I did
not receive any notices from the Council including the Order for
Recovery or had the opportunity to respond to those. I moved
from this property in xxxxxx and I accept that the new address
was not updated on the V5C (although the Driver License was
promptly updated). This resulted in DVLA sharing my previous
address and I apologise for not keeping these details current.
The request to amend the V5C has now been made. I would like to
reiterate that I would have paid the original PCN fee on time
had I received it to my current address. I only found out when
the new residents of my previous property shared letters under
my name that had the communication from the bailiffs
For the TE9 form I am assuming I will be ticking the option I
did not receive the Notice to Owner / Penalty Charge Notice
On the TE9, are the Respondant and Applicant the same person (as
in the person that the PCN / bailiff's have addressed the comms
to?)
Finally, are there any other forms to be completed, e.g. PE3?
but I would need this to be sworn before a Solicitor?
To reconfirm, is the email address for TEC for submitting the
completed TE7 and TE9 - tec@justice.gov.uk?
Also, for visibility, I have sent off the letter to the Reading
Council based on suggestions received here (quoted Rule 6
requesting them to stop enforcement having provided more context
to the reasons for the delay and other terms preventing the
bailiffs to enforce i.e. Regulation 3 of The Taking Control of
Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014 and National Standards 2014
(Paragraphs 8, 12, and 16), Paragraph 66 of Schedule 12 for
relief from the Council's enforcement ). I will update as I
receive the response.
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