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#Post#: 44667--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: Alan
Date: November 8, 2024, 3:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Pressman link ---
>
> You should contact Reading Council directly, explaining that
the original PCN was sent to your old address due to an outdated
V5C document. Frame this as Pre-action Conduct and Protocol
under Rule 6, inviting the Reading Council to cease enforcement
since the Warrant is "defective" because it lists your old
address. Highlight that you would have promptly paid the £115 if
properly notified, demonstrating your willingness to comply. Set
a clear deadline for the Reading Council to confirm in writing
that enforcement has been stopped. While they may not be
obligated to reduce the charge, providing evidence of your
intent to pay may encourage a favourable outcome.
>
> Is negotiating a reduced fee with CDER feasible?
>
> No, CDER is unlikely to agree to a lower fee, as they are
instructed to recover the full amount now due. Negotiation
attempts typically do not affect enforcement agents' fees once
they are involved.
>
> Should I submit a TE9 form, even though I have no CCJ, citing
that I did not receive the PCN?
>
> No, completing a TE9 form is not advisable here. Submitting
the TE9 would likely result in a new warrant being issued with
your updated address, which would enable CDER to continue
enforcement actions against you directly. The TE9 process
primarily benefits the council by allowing them to restart
enforcement with correct details rather than helping you reduce
the fee or contest the enforcement.
>
> Should I pay the fee now and then dispute it with the council
later?
>
> No, paying the fee at this stage could be regarded as a
voluntary payment, treated legally as a gift, and would likely
limit your ability to recover it. Voluntary payments are
challenging to reclaim, so avoid paying the £425 until you've
fully explored all other options with the council.
>
> As a final measure, since the Warrant states your old address,
it is considered a "defective instrument." If the bailiff
continues to enforce such an instrument, you may seek relief
from the court to halt the enforcement.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks, Pressman for the detailed response.
How do I deal with the fact that the fines will continue to be
imposed by CDER / bailiff's while I negotiate with Reading
Council? Could CDER affect my credit history? Is there a way to
stop the bailiff's from continuing to add these charges? Thank
you
#Post#: 44671--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 8, 2024, 3:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
In practical terms they've added all they
HTML https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/bailiff-regulations/taking-control-of-goods-fees-regulations-2014
As far as I'm aware, a 'defective' warrant of control would only
prevent seizing goods AT the property, it would not prevent CDER
enforcing against you via your car i.e. clamp and then demand
payment to release.
A defective warrant could be remedied, therefore dodging and
weaving with this does nothing but buy some time.
IMO, your issue is the enforcement agent's inability to contact
you. Are you a Russian spy operating under cover or do you
possibly have credit agreements in your name at your new address
etc?
CDER cannot just add their fees, in particular the £235
Enforcement fee, simply because they've been too idle to serve
notices on you. But we don't know your situation, so it's
difficult to assess.
To date and as far as we're aware all statutory notices from the
council and CDER(the Notice of Enforcement) have gone unanswered
by you. IMO, your best bet is to get the £235 removed from the
debt, the icing on the cake would be the £75 as well, but then
this would have the effect of not penalising keepers who don't
keep DVLA up to date, playing doggo until the s**t hits the fan
and then using their failure to keep proper DVLA records as an
excuse to avoid all enforcement fees. I'll sleep on whether this
is a legal or moral perspective.
#Post#: 44682--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: Pressman
Date: November 8, 2024, 5:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Alan, please understand that the CDER Group has no legal basis
to affect your credit rating, as no contract exists between you
and them. The alleged debt does not stem from a line of credit;
rather, it is a statutory liability.
Some argue that it is always the debtor's fault for not updating
their V5 with the DVLA, but this is not accurate. Only the DVLA
has the authority to handle such matters under Section 59 of the
Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 and Part 7 of the
Criminal Procedure Rules 2020. Neither the council nor
enforcement agents have the authority to claim you are at fault,
as this is exclusively reserved for the DVLA in its
prosecutorial capacity.
If the council or bailiff asserts that enforcement is justified
due to outdated DVLA records, you can apply to strike out their
pleadings, as they lack any legal grounds for such a claim.
Civil Procedure Rule 75.7(7) allows them to apply for a warrant
specifying their current address. Enforcing at an outdated
address with an invalid warrant exposes both the council and
bailiff to liability.
It would be best if you issued a Rule 6 notice to the Reading
Council, informing them that the warrant is defective as it
lists your previous address. Set a deadline for them to cease
enforcement. Alternatively, you may apply to the court for a
restraining order, providing evidence of the defective warrant,
your current address, and CDER Group's threats to enforce at
your new address. The court may issue an order under paragraph
66 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act
2007.
#Post#: 44683--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: Pressman
Date: November 8, 2024, 5:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
>
>
> CDER cannot just add their fees, in particular the £235
Enforcement fee, simply because they've been too idle to serve
notices on you. But we don't know your situation, so it's
difficult to assess.
>
--- End Quote ---
After reviewing your advice and the link provided, I compared it
with the relevant legal authorities on enforcement agent fees.
The regulations clearly state that only an enforcement agent,
acting individually, is authorised to recover the prescribed
fees from debtors. As a corporate entity, CDER Group Limited
cannot act as an enforcement agent in this context. Section 63
of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 explicitly
defines an enforcement agent as an individual with a valid
certificate. Therefore, your advice suggesting that CDER Group
can charge fees to a debtor is inaccurate.
I recommend updating your website to accurately reflect the
Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014 and citing it as
a reference to enhance clarity and ensure your website is
complaint.
#Post#: 44685--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 8, 2024, 5:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm not certain that the semantic distinction between a company
engaged by a council to enforce warrants as their agents and the
individual agents employed by that company really assists the
OP.
#Post#: 44694--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: Alan
Date: November 9, 2024, 2:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Pressman link ---
>
> Alan, please understand that the CDER Group has no legal basis
to affect your credit rating, as no contract exists between you
and them. The alleged debt does not stem from a line of credit;
rather, it is a statutory liability.
>
> Some argue that it is always the debtor's fault for not
updating their V5 with the DVLA, but this is not accurate. Only
the DVLA has the authority to handle such matters under Section
59 of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 and Part 7 of
the Criminal Procedure Rules 2020. Neither the council nor
enforcement agents have the authority to claim you are at fault,
as this is exclusively reserved for the DVLA in its
prosecutorial capacity.
>
> If the council or bailiff asserts that enforcement is
justified due to outdated DVLA records, you can apply to strike
out their pleadings, as they lack any legal grounds for such a
claim. Civil Procedure Rule 75.7(7) allows them to apply for a
warrant specifying their current address. Enforcing at an
outdated address with an invalid warrant exposes both the
council and bailiff to liability.
>
> It would be best if you issued a Rule 6 notice to the Reading
Council, informing them that the warrant is defective as it
lists your previous address. Set a deadline for them to cease
enforcement. Alternatively, you may apply to the court for a
restraining order, providing evidence of the defective warrant,
your current address, and CDER Group's threats to enforce at
your new address. The court may issue an order under paragraph
66 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act
2007.
>
--- End Quote ---
Based on your advise, I am proposing the below letter to the
Council with a 4 day deadline from them receiving this letter
(is this reasonable)?
Dear Sir, Madam,
This is with regards to the above PCN number. I am writing to
advise that the original PCN was sent to my old address due to
an outdated V5C document. Under rule 6 (Pre-action Conduct and
Protocol), I’d like to invite the Reading Council to cease
enforcement since the Warrant is "defective" because it lists my
old address.
I’d like to highlight that I would have promptly paid the £115
if properly notified to my new address.
With the Warrant stating the old address, this is a defective
instrument and as such I’d like to ask you to confirm in writing
that enforcement has been stopped, by the latest 15th November
2024
Please reply to my new address as stated above.
Thanks
Also, you suggested reaching out to the Court to get relief from
the Enforcement to continue. I am not sure which Court and who
to write to. Is there any guidance that can be provided here?
Finally, I have not yet provided the Bailiff company with my new
address. Should I be doing so now?
#Post#: 44697--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: Alan
Date: November 9, 2024, 2:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: H C Andersen link ---
>
> In practical terms they've added all they
HTML https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/bailiff-regulations/taking-control-of-goods-fees-regulations-2014
>
>
> As far as I'm aware, a 'defective' warrant of control would
only prevent seizing goods AT the property, it would not prevent
CDER enforcing against you via your car i.e. clamp and then
demand payment to release.
>
> A defective warrant could be remedied, therefore dodging and
weaving with this does nothing but buy some time.
>
> IMO, your issue is the enforcement agent's inability to
contact you. Are you a Russian spy operating under cover or do
you possibly have credit agreements in your name at your new
address etc?
>
> CDER cannot just add their fees, in particular the £235
Enforcement fee, simply because they've been too idle to serve
notices on you. But we don't know your situation, so it's
difficult to assess.
>
> To date and as far as we're aware all statutory notices from
the council and CDER(the Notice of Enforcement) have gone
unanswered by you. IMO, your best bet is to get the £235 removed
from the debt, the icing on the cake would be the £75 as well,
but then this would have the effect of not penalising keepers
who don't keep DVLA up to date, playing doggo until the s**t
hits the fan and then using their failure to keep proper DVLA
records as an excuse to avoid all enforcement fees. I'll sleep
on whether this is a legal or moral perspective.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks HC Andersen for sharing the link and your guidance. I am
not sure why CDER could not contact me at my new address inspite
of the V5C not been updated (I am assuming they have the means
to get my details by checking in with govt. authorities). I do
have an existing credit agreement in my name at my current
address but I have been told CDER's enforcement will not affect
this?
Yes I did miss the V5C updates, having updated everything else
when I moved and is certainly a learning for me. My point is in
the event of failure of updating the V5C, is there still
reasonable grounds to get the £235 removed (possibly the £75)
and if so, should I contact the Bailiff's for this directly or
as suggested earlier use the route through the council?
Finally, with the current fee of £425 including the £235 and
£75, is this now likely to increase by another £110 as Sale Fee,
when they visit next (albeit at the incorrect old address)? The
notice for £425 was served 4th Nov so can they visit, say, next
week and add the £110? I am concerned the fees could keep going
up and will eventually be liable for more.
#Post#: 44715--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 9, 2024, 5:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The enforcement agents are agents of the council. All matters
pertaining to their actions may be taken up with the council.
Any sensible agent would ask their principal about the
circumstances which gave rise to a warrant because these can
vary e.g. a known person and whereabouts who's exhausted the
appeals procedure but refuses to pay to someone about whom the
authority know nothing, no response to any notices and,
effectively, a warrant issued in default etc. IMO, the agent is
under a legal duty to check that the person named in the warrant
actually lives at the premises specified. If they don't, then
it's reasonable to assume that a NoE would not be served albeit
posted.
In your case, you're not a Russian spy and have credit
agreements(my reference to this was not in the context of how
these might be affected by your situation, rather that your head
is above the metaphorical tracing parapet and your correct
address could easily be established by the bailiffs) therefore
there is no reason, other than idleness, why a NoE was not
served on you at your current address. (being forwarded by a
third party is not service because this relies upon a legal
presumption that service is effected in accordance with the
Interpretation Act unless a higher standard is imposed under
specific regulations - in short 2 working days after posting by
first-class post when correctly addressed to the named person).
Yours was not, it was addressed to a property where you do not
reside.
They cannot add a sale fee because none of your goods is at the
premises on the warrant(are they??) therefore there's nothing to
seize or remove and auction.
You must conduct matters in writing pl, even when this confirms
telephone calls with named people.
I don't agree with the draft because IMO it doesn't scope the
current situation fully.
Re PCN ********
I have become aware that the council have engaged the services
of CDER** to enforce a warrant of control against me in respect
of a PCN issued by the council on ******. As you are aware, you
did not receive any communications from me regarding this PCN
because at the time it was issued I was not resident at *****.
In fact I moved on ******. Consequently, none of the notices,
including the Order for Recovery, was served.
I accept that this was due to the council being advised by DVLA
that, as registered keeper, **** was my address for these
purposes and I apologise for not keeping these details current.
Nonetheless, none of your notices was received and I shall be
taking up this matter with the Traffic Enforcement Centre. As a
consequence of you not being aware of my correct address, your
agent, ****, has similarly not served any of their statutory
notices. While I accept that the council are bound to use DVLA
data unless notified to the contrary, the same does not apply to
your agent who has already attended the wrong property despite
them not receiving any response to their wrongly-addressed NoE.
Had they undertaken their duties in a diligent manner they would
have discovered my present address with ease. I also suspect
that they have not made you aware of this issue, which means
that the warrant remains defective.
They are seeking to charge me £75 Compliance Fee and £235
Enforcement Fee on the basis of these failings.
..I would end with I am prepared to bring enforcement of the
warrant to a conclusion by paying the Compliance Fee on receipt
of a NoE addressed to me as follows:
********
********
As regards the underlying PCN, I shall engage with the 'put of
time' procedure.
Others will have views.
Should CDER attend your property in the meantime, check their
warrant and if defective politely tell them to get this
rectified. I would also copy your letter to CDER.
#Post#: 44738--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: Pressman
Date: November 9, 2024, 8:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Do not give CDER Group your new address or copy them in.
Dear Reading Council
Re: PCN Number [insert PCN number]
I am writing concerning the above PCN, which was sent to an
outdated address due to an incorrect V5C document. Under Rule 6
of the Pre-Action Conduct and Protocol, I formally request that
Reading Council cease enforcement, as the warrant is defective
for listing my previous address.
Had I received the PCN at my current address, I would have
promptly paid the £115. Please confirm in writing by 15 November
2024 that all enforcement action has been halted.
Ensure that all future correspondence is directed to my current
address.
If I do not receive written confirmation of the cessation of
enforcement under the present warrant of control, I will apply
to the court for relief from sanctions in accordance with
Paragraph 66 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and
Enforcement Act 2007 and will also seek recovery of my legal
expenses on an indemnity basis.
Moreover, CDER Group Limited is not entitled to recover any fees
or charges due to the defective warrant, as outlined in
Regulation 3 of The Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations
2014. Barton v. Trowbridge Council [2018] EWCA Civ 432 confirms
that any defect in the warrant renders associated enforcement
fees irrecoverable. This also constitutes a breach of the Taking
Control of Goods: National Standards 2014 (Paragraphs 8, 12, and
16), which mandate fair and compliant enforcement.
Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.
Yours faithfully,
Edit: Case law is Barton v. Wright Hassall LLP [2018] UKSC 12
#Post#: 44746--------------------------------------------------
Re: Bailiffs in touch moving to Court - Reading Council - PCN
contravention bus lane, notice sent to old address
DIR By: Alan
Date: November 9, 2024, 9:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Pressman link ---
>
> Do not give CDER Group your new address or copy them in.
>
>
> Dear Reading Council
>
> Re: PCN Number [insert PCN number]
>
> I am writing concerning the above PCN, which was sent to an
outdated address due to an incorrect V5C document. Under Rule 6
of the Pre-Action Conduct and Protocol, I formally request that
Reading Council cease enforcement, as the warrant is defective
for listing my previous address.
>
> Had I received the PCN at my current address, I would have
promptly paid the £115. Please confirm in writing by 15 November
2024 that all enforcement action has been halted.
>
> Ensure that all future correspondence is directed to my
current address.
>
> If I do not receive written confirmation of the cessation of
enforcement under the present warrant of control, I will apply
to the court for relief from sanctions in accordance with
Paragraph 66 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and
Enforcement Act 2007 and will also seek recovery of my legal
expenses on an indemnity basis.
>
> Moreover, CDER Group Limited is not entitled to recover any
fees or charges due to the defective warrant, as outlined in
Regulation 3 of The Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations
2014. Barton v. Trowbridge Council [2018] EWCA Civ 432 confirms
that any defect in the warrant renders associated enforcement
fees irrecoverable. This also constitutes a breach of the Taking
Control of Goods: National Standards 2014 (Paragraphs 8, 12, and
16), which mandate fair and compliant enforcement.
>
> Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.
>
> Yours faithfully,
>
> Edit: Case law is Barton v. Wright Hassall LLP [2018] UKSC 12
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks so much, Pressman.
As I have now updated my V5C online with my new address and with
this letter to the Council, CDER may now be able to trace my new
address. My concern right now is if CDER turn up at my current
address, what recourse do I have to stop them clamping my car or
asking me to pay. i.e. what should I be saying to them or
equally what documentation should already be provide by them to
my new address (e.g. NoE?) for them to take this action. I can
show them my letter to the Council but does not mean much
without Council reponding in time before they visit.
Should I include my phone number in my email to the Council?
Just so they can call me and we can save a couple of days via
post?
Any advise on this front would be welcome. Thanks
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