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#Post#: 3071--------------------------------------------------
Richmond Upon Thames, code 06P Parked without displaying ticket,
SHEEN RD RICHMOND
DIR By: goldfishbrains
Date: August 11, 2023, 5:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi All,
I received a PCN for parking without a ticket. The PCN states:
- Vehicle observed from: 25/06/2023 13:05:00
- Contravention date and time: 25/06/2023 13:14:00
However, I purchased the parking ticket via Ringgo.
My ringo pdf receipt states:
- 25/06/2023 1:04 PM - 25/06/2023 2:04 PM 1 hours
I contested this, providing the Ringo receipt as evidence.
It came back yesterday, with stating the PCN still stands:
--- Quote ---
> The PCN was issued because your vehicle was observed parked in
a pay and display bay, enforced Monday to Saturday, 8:30am to
6:30pm, Sundays and Bank Holidays 11am to 5pm without activating
or displaying valid parking rights.
>
> You say that you purchased a RingGo cashless parking session
for the material time and you have submitted your RingGo receipt
to support your case.
>
> I have reviewed your receipt and can advise that you paid for
a session that included a CO2 discount however after making
enquiries with the DVLA, I can confirm that your vehicle is not
entitled to this discount (see below). On this basis, your paid
for parking session was not valid and this consequently, the
Civil Enforcement Officer issued a PCN.
>
> It is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure the correct
parking rights are applied to a vehicle where relevant, if a PCN
is to be avoided.
--- End Quote ---
Looking at the Ringgo receipt, it does state they have given me
a CO2 discount of £0.35 (ticket cost after discount = £3.05).
The receipt also shows my engine size, as Ringo have looked this
up from DVLA database.
I have never requested a CO2 discount, and I can't find any
setting in my Ringo Profile that would suggest I can request
one.
When buying a ticket, I am only asked for location code,
duration and car-reg.
If I log into the Ringgo website, I can see next to my saved
vehicles, that they have correctly looked up my car engine size
("1390cc") from DVLA.
Other cars in my profile have both engine size + emissions
listed (eg. "112g/km;1560cc").
Regardless, this is something that Ringgo looks up - I have no
way of setting/editing this.
From the app, you can't see this information (only visible from
web).
I also have a Richmond residents permit, which should have made
me eligible for 30mins free parking, but they have for unknown
reasons not deducted this (again, I have no manual way to
request this - it was linked by the council when applying for
the permit).
What to do next?
I don't see what I could have done differently, other than not
use the app.
I could have just used the ticket machine, and I would have got
free 30 mins parking anyway - I was back to my car within 40
mins, and could have speeded up my trip.
Should I contest this further and risk paying the full charge,
or have I done something wrong here and should just pay up?
Thanks for you help!
PCN:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/AUGMQPo.jpg
Response from council after appeal:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/KAXVOGv.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/jJE2oOP.png
Ringgo Receipt:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/zSU0Uhz.png
Ringgo Vehicles - my car is the one at the top, and for some
reason doesn't have co2 data.
I don't have anyway to modify this, as it seems to be pulled
from dvla.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/S7y7uUD.png
#Post#: 3084--------------------------------------------------
Re: Richmond Upon Thames, code 06P Parked without displaying
ticket, SHEEN RD RICHMOND
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: August 11, 2023, 7:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The key question here is why RingGo applied a discount to a car
registered in 2000. As it is the council that have contracted
with RingGo for their pay-by-phone facility, it is clearly their
responsibility to make sure RingGo is applying the discount
correctly.
I suggest you wait for the Notice to Owner and submit
representations again, that point out you used RingGo in good
faith, and it is not your fault the discount was incorrectly
applied.
#Post#: 3235--------------------------------------------------
Re: Richmond Upon Thames, code 06P Parked without displaying
ticket, SHEEN RD RICHMOND
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 14, 2023, 12:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Incandescent link ---
>
> The key question here is why RingGo applied a discount to a
car registered in 2000.
>
--- End Quote ---
As a slight variation on that, I'd say the key issue is that you
did everything you were required to do under the regulations.
That unbeknown to you ringo applied a discount is wholly outside
of your control, so it's immaterial why ringgo did that. You
complied with all that was required of you, and it's up to the
council to provide a system that is fit for purpose.
I would have no hesitation in taking this to the tribunal based
on what you've told us.
#Post#: 3260--------------------------------------------------
Re: Richmond Upon Thames, code 06P Parked without displaying
ticket, SHEEN RD RICHMOND
DIR By: goldfishbrains
Date: August 14, 2023, 6:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks [member=1]cp8759[/member] .
As a test, I tried buying a few additional parking tickets, to
see if it still shows co2 (and to make sure I didn't miss
something in the ringgo app to request the discount).
HTML https://i.imgur.com/r70sowP.png
On the 11th, I first bought a ticket for 15 mins. It should have
been £1, but came as as free.
The second ticket - purchased within 60 mins of the first
expiring - was full price, and didn't show any co2 discount.
The third, purchased the next day, showed the co2 discount
again.
This seems in-line with Richmond residents parking discount
(
HTML https://www.richmond.gov.uk/richmond_card_for_parking)
--- Quote ---
>
> If you live in the borough and hold a Richmond Card, you can
get 30 minutes free parking in our:
> ..
> You can only park for a single session for a period of up to
30 minutes. If you wish to park for longer you must pay for the
total duration of your stay, but as a resident you will receive
a 10% discount
--- End Quote ---
The current advertised parking fees (gone up since I got the
PCN):
- Up to 15 Minutes - £1.00
- 30 Minutes - £1.95
- 45 Minutes - £2.80
- 1 Hour - £3.75
When I try to book in the app, I get these prices:
- [15 mins] FREE
- [30 mins] FREE
- [45 mins] £2.80 - 10% = £2.52 (charge shows as £2.50)
- [60 mins] £3.75 - 10% = £3.375 (charge shows as £3.40)
The same link above also describes the low-emissions discount:
--- Quote ---
> A 50 per cent discount applies on parking charges or parking
permits* if you have a Car Tax Band A vehicle
--- End Quote ---
I clearly didn't receive 50% discount.
If I try other cars with low emission number plates, the charge
is £1.90 for 1 hour (same for two cars, one with residents
permit, one without)
I think that they have just mislabelled the residents discount
on the Ringo VAT receipt.
#Post#: 3261--------------------------------------------------
Re: Richmond Upon Thames, code 06P Parked without displaying
ticket, SHEEN RD RICHMOND
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 14, 2023, 7:33 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Let us know when you get the Notice to Owner.
#Post#: 3265--------------------------------------------------
Re: Richmond Upon Thames, code 06P Parked without displaying
ticket, SHEEN RD RICHMOND
DIR By: guest179
Date: August 15, 2023, 3:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
OP, your desire to investigate the why is laudable, but IMO it
risks over-complicating matters.
You park; you look at the traffic sign; you contact the service
provider prescribed; you enter the details required; you see the
tariff demanded; you pay or drive away.
That's it IMO.
How the council's service provider calculates the tariff
demanded is NOT your concern, it's the council's.
How the service provider notifies the council and its officers
is NOT your concern, it's the council's.
...AND what's been overlooked so far, the wrong grounds have
been used!
There is no 'display' requirement with RingGo therefore the
contravention cannot be for failiure to display. Code 11 is the
correct code, see the CEO Handbook under contravention code 11
HTML https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/download/file/fid/4029
#Post#: 7418--------------------------------------------------
Re: Richmond Upon Thames, code 06P Parked without displaying
ticket, SHEEN RD RICHMOND
DIR By: goldfishbrains
Date: October 14, 2023, 7:21 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi All,
I got a reply from Ringo:
HTML https://imgur.com/a/36bSBmp
--- Quote ---
> I am writing to advise that the "(including CO2 discount of
£0.35)" on your invoice was incorrectly showing on your invoice.
We believe this happened because of the age of your car, where
unfortunately, the information is not held on the DVLA website
and therefore did not automatically populate on our system. It
appears that this was a one off error, we have checked the other
invoices on your account and these are correct and no showing
this discount.
--- End Quote ---
The bad news ...
Today I received a Charge Certificate.
I'm certain I never received the Notice to Owner, though the
certificate says it was issued on 30/08.
Do I have no options to appeal this now?
Now I have a £90 fee for a £0.35 discount Ringo says they
incorrectly applied.
Appreciate the advice,
Ravi
#Post#: 7422--------------------------------------------------
Re: Richmond Upon Thames, code 06P Parked without displaying
ticket, SHEEN RD RICHMOND
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: October 14, 2023, 7:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
No you will nest receive a document called a order for recovery
with this you will receive a form allowing you to make a
statutory declaration to the effect that you did not receive the
NTO the CC will be cancelled and the council will re serve the
NTO
#Post#: 7434--------------------------------------------------
Re: Richmond Upon Thames, code 06P Parked without displaying
ticket, SHEEN RD RICHMOND
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: October 14, 2023, 10:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
You don't want to risk any letters going missing in the post, so
keep an eye on the amount owing on the council website. When the
debt has been registered with the traffic enforcement centre,
the penalty will increase by a further £9, at that point you can
download form TE9
HTML https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1094491/Parking_TE9.pdf.
Just fill in the form on your computer (no need to print), the
traffic enforcement centre accepts typed signatures. Remember
the applicant is the council, not you. Tick the box for "I did
not receive the Notice to Owner / Penalty Charge Notice" and
email the completed form to justice@tec.gov.uk with the PCN
number in the subject line.
The court will then issue an order cancelling the charge
certificate, the order for recovery and the notice to owner. The
council will then send you a further notice to owner.
Of course because you don't want to rely on the post, at that
stage you should keep checking the council website once a week
or so, once the penalty drops back down to £60 you can assume a
new notice to owner has been issued and you can submit
representations via the council website.
#Post#: 11520--------------------------------------------------
Re: Richmond Upon Thames, code 06P Parked without displaying
ticket, SHEEN RD RICHMOND
DIR By: goldfishbrains
Date: November 29, 2023, 6:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi [member=1]cp8759[/member],
I can see now the fine is back down to £60 on the council
website.
Do you have any recommendations on what I should be submitting
in the formal representations?
- ringo applied a discount is wholly outside of your control
- Ringo have confirmed in writing that the amount charged was
result of error in their systems
- pdf of the ringgo correspondence?
- screenshots of the ringgo app, showing there is no way for me
to request a discount?
-
Do I also submit details of how the amounts align with my
entitled residents discount, and co2 discount would actually be
much greater, or as @guest179 says, complicate the matter. - I
should save this for the adjudicator?
As always, thanks for all your help.
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