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#Post#: 43802--------------------------------------------------
PCN at South Woodford late at night
DIR By: Jag84
Date: November 3, 2024, 3:30 pm
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I went out in South Woodford parked my car in a bay on the
street and from the signs parking appeared to be free after
18:30 but not after mid-night
When I came back to my dis-belief I had a ticket on my car a PCN
given at 21:37. I went to read the sign again and turns out
after 18:30 till mid-night you cannot park there unless it's a
taxi. Me and my daughter had to read the sign about 2-3 times to
figure out why we got a ticket. Found the sign a bit confusing
had to read it about 2-3 times to figure out why we contravened
but maybe we are just a bit slow
Should I just go-ahead and pay the fine or is there any merit in
appealing ?
The fact a warden came to that spot at almost 10pm suggests to
me they know people get caught out and is an easy fine for them
Reason for fine: Stopped On A Taxi Rank
Contravention Code: 45
Penalty: £130 (50% discount if paid within 14 days)
I've uploaded photo of the sign on dropBox
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/i0r2uzf7gczvftwgd4bdz/RoadSign.jpg?rlkey=x1x4iudjpu8g474kwss11ujti&st=cv3ibsw0&dl=0
Thanks for any help and apologies if we just don't read the
detail well enough
#Post#: 43809--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN at South Woodford late at night
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: November 3, 2024, 4:36 pm
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Someting wrong with your Dropbox link, as the photo initially
comes up then immediately disappears with an error screen.
You need to post the PCN too, please. A Google Street View link
to the location would also not come amiss too. When it comes to
parking bay signs, one should read them from the top to the
bottom.
#Post#: 43813--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN at South Woodford late at night
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: November 3, 2024, 5:16 pm
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We've seen this one before - I don't understand why they've
divided the taxi time into two around midnight, and in doing so
not put the first in time first.
There is a lot of sign clutter on that post. Some cases below.
Google Maps:
HTML https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5945363,0.0241906,3a,75y,251.52h,78.93t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sTdU8aYezNp3uqI5oKkT_9Q!2e0!5s20160701T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D11.068363471717177%26panoid%3DTdU8aYezNp3uqI5oKkT_9Q%26yaw%3D251.52243179304432!7i13312!8i6656?coh=205410&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
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223044546A
The main question to be considered is whether the authority has
complied with its duty of fairness towards the Appellant by
providing information in a sufficiently clear manner for the
combination of the various restrictions in the parking place.
The case of the Appellant is that the signage is unclear. It is
submitted that there are four signs, which are all displaying
different things and there should be one clear sign to avoid
confusion.
The case of the authority is that the signage is compliant with
the TSRGD 2016 and that the bay functions as a pay and display
bay when it is not in use as a taxi rank – the wording on the
second sign down states that “No stopping …. Sunday at any time,
except taxis”
I find as fact that: the signage was compliant with the relevant
regulations; the information provided by the four signs was
(taken as a whole) too detailed for the relevant restrictions to
be understood sufficiently clearly; the Appellant was confused
by the signage at the parking place.
The authority must not only comply with the TSRGD 2016 but is
also under a duty to act fairly in all the circumstances. The
authority must therefore have signs which accord with the
concept of fairness to the Appellant
It is necessary for the authority to put in place a simpler
system of providing information in order for the information for
the relevant restrictions to be sufficiently fully informative
by only including information that can be reasonably easily
understood.
I am unable to be satisfied that the authority has complied with
its duty of fairness towards the Appellant by providing
information in a sufficiently clear manner for the combination
of the various restrictions in the parking place because I
accept the evidence and submissions of the Appellant.
2230432016
I do not agree with Mr Chowdury that the signage for this bay is
inadequate.
The presence of the bay markings and the single yellow line
running through the bay alert motorists to check for the bay and
line restrictions. Whilst it is certainly the case that the time
plates adjacent to the bay require careful reading, I am
satisfied on balance that they are clear in conveying the
restrictions. There are three signs. The sign at the top is
signage for a taxi stand for 3 taxis. Beneath that is the plate
with the no stopping restrictions and the controlled hours with
the exemption for taxis. The plate at the bottom then has the
controlled hours for the pay and display/pay by phone parking
which are outside of the hours when the no stopping restrictions
apply. It is not uncommon to have a bay where there are
different restrictions at different times. It is clear from the
evidence that Mr Chowdhury's car was parked when the no stopping
restriction applied.
2230415367
The Authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle was stopped
on a taxi rank when in George Lane on 18 June 2023 at 20.16.
The Appellant believed thta he was parked lawfully and has
criticised the signage at the location.
I have considered the evidence in this case and I find that the
signage at this location, whilst compliant with the regulations,
was overall inadequate and confusing.
There is an element of signage cluttering with four signs on the
one pole, with the very top panel being illegible due to dust
and dirt.
#Post#: 43856--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN at South Woodford late at night
DIR By: Jag84
Date: November 4, 2024, 5:00 am
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I've uploaded the PCN ticket. Are you still having problems
viewing the picture of the road sign ?
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/9weau0xw3a5t7dw6to9tn/PCNTicket.jpg?rlkey=76lfmsg573pp0jh8ozdghgjwr&st=049m3fh8&dl=0
So should I appeal and should I put in those case examples given
in the appeal ? The numbers for each case do they have any
relevance which the council will also be able to refer to ?
#Post#: 43874--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN at South Woodford late at night
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 4, 2024, 6:00 am
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IMO, there's nothing improper about the signs as they comply
exactly with regulatory requirements and signs manual examples.
1.—(1) A reference to a time, or to times, of the day may be
shown as, or varied to, the following—
(a)a period of time expressed as “7.30 – 9.00 am”, “7 - 9 am”,
“7.30 am – 6 pm”, “4 – 7 pm”, “4.00 – 6.30 pm”, “8 pm – 6 am”,
“8 pm – 6 am next day” or any other time period and which may
include the expression “Midnight”, “M’night”, “Midday” or “Noon”
;
IMO, starting with 'midnight' follows logically from stopping
being prohibited until midnight on Sundays therefore the clock
starts from 0001 on Mon. morning
The form of the sign, single on the same post, is also permitted
and IMO recommended.
Submit reps by all means but not before you've posted the back
of the PCN pl.
#Post#: 43885--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN at South Woodford late at night
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: November 4, 2024, 6:51 am
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Yes the no stopping times are consistent - my bad.
The two cases won I posted were on too much clutter. The other
one lost says signs clear. I expect there are others refused on
this basis.
#Post#: 43900--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN at South Woodford late at night
DIR By: Jag84
Date: November 4, 2024, 8:20 am
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I'll try to post the back of the PCN tonight when I come back
from work thx
The case numbers should I reference them in an appeal ? Do they
have visibility of them ?
#Post#: 43902--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN at South Woodford late at night
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: November 4, 2024, 8:35 am
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The case numbers are tribunal numbers and unique identifiers.
But we wouldn't usually recommend quoting cases in an informal
challenge. Instead you'd pick up grounds such as sign clutter
and confusion.
But they are bound to reject (twice) and it's pot luck if you
get an adjudicator who buys the clutter.
There may be other grounds re the PCN.
#Post#: 43964--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN at South Woodford late at night
DIR By: Jag84
Date: November 4, 2024, 2:20 pm
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As requested have uploaded the back of the PCN as well
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/k0see7tuwbangxoilvi4b/IMG_20241104_201713696.jpg?rlkey=03484lfoq6oqh0e1lj7wbrv26&st=9ehesa97&dl=0
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