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#Post#: 43732--------------------------------------------------
Debt Recovery Plus - Copthall Leisure Centre - London
DIR By: allondon
Date: November 3, 2024, 7:39 am
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Good afternoon,
Imgur link
HTML https://imgur.com/a/MfjmWms.
I would be grateful for the advice.
I received a demand to pay from Debt Recovery Plus for failure
to pay for the parking at Copthall Leisure Centre (Barnet,
London) on 16 September. Not sure when it was posted, but the
deadline is 7 November.
I have never received a Parking Charge Notice , therefore I can
only assume it relates to us dropping our son off for school
swimming lessons. Without the Parking Charge Notice I am not
aware of any details and, obviously, had no chance to respond.
We sometimes had to wait 10-15 mins for the school bus to
arrive, but the driver was always in and the engine was on.
I expect more Parking Charge Notices to arrive for each visit,
but this one is more urgent to deal with.
I consider complaining to the Copthall management and asking to
cancel the charges but this will reveal - at least, indirectly -
the identities of the drivers.
Thanks in advance.
#Post#: 43762--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debt Recovery Plus - Copthall Leisure Centre - London
DIR By: b789
Date: November 3, 2024, 11:30 am
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Welcome. First of all, we are not interested in useless debt
collector letters. Neither should you be.
No need to show us and you can safely ignore them. Best to use
them as kindling or lining the bottom of a litter tray.
If you have never received the original Notice to Keeper (NtK),
you must ask yourself why? The most common reason is that when
you last moved, you failed to update with the DVLA the address
on the vehicles V5C. Updating your derivers licence with the
DVLA does not automatically update the V5C. If it is the reason
you did not receive the original NtK, you must update that now
and it can easily be done online. You risk a real fine of up to
£1,000 by failing to keep that document up to date.
If this is the reason you have not received the Parking Charge
Notice (PCN), you must send the DPO of Gemini Parking Solutions
London Ltd a Data Rectification Notice instructing them to
update their files with your current address for service and for
them to erase any other addresses they ay hold for you. The
highlighted words are there for a reason and should be used. You
do not want them holding a choice of addresses as there is a
very high probability that any claim issued will be sent to an
address you do not reside at and a default CCJ will be issued.
It just makes everything so much more difficult to try and sort
out later when you discover it.
As you have started receiving debt collector letters, it is too
late to appeal. You are now waiting to see if/when they decide
to escalate the matter to litigation. They may not but they have
up to 6 years to file a claim.
The next important stage will be if/when they send a Letter of
Claim (LoC) before any claim. An LoC is different from any debt
collection letter in that it must conform to the requirements of
the Pre Action Protocols (PAP) for debt claims. The most obvious
one will be that you have 30 days, not 14 as in most Debt
Recovery Agency (DRA) letters. Also, it will come either from
the parking aerator themselves or, in most cases from a bulk
litigation solicitor.
If/when you receive an LoC, come and show us as it is the
prequel to a claim from arriving which cannot be ignored. These
are very easy to defend and in most cases, they will eventually
discontinue. Very few actually go all the way to a hearing and
those that do, if defended with the advice given here, are
either struck out or won.
There is no danger of a CCJ as long as your address for service
is up to date and even if you were one of the very few who are
not successful, as long as the CCJ is paid in full within 28
days of the judgment, there is no record of it on your credit
file as it is completely expunged from the record.
So, if you are feeling aggrieved about this, there are likely to
be more on the way and you are prepared to fight it with our
advice, let us know if/when an LoC arrives. I remind you that
debt collector letters can be safely ignored. Never, ever, ever
communicate with the useless debt collectors.
The fact that the driver was always in the vehicle and that the
engine was on, is irrelevant. As all the images of the location
in GSV are old, it would be worthwhile getting some photos of
the signs at the entrance and within the car park with some
showing the general layout, especially near where you were
parked at the time.
#Post#: 43770--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debt Recovery Plus - Copthall Leisure Centre - London
DIR By: allondon
Date: November 3, 2024, 12:10 pm
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Thank you for the response.
My DVLA address is up-to-date as I've not moved in the last 15
years.
I will try to get there and take pictures, though I am now
unsure where and for how long I can leave the car, but I got a
dumb question: if Gemini have up to 6 years to claim and the LoC
(or other time restricted correspondence) arrives when I am away
- what will be my course of action if I miss it?
I expect more Parking Charge Notices to arrive as our son had
several school swimming lessons at Copthall.
#Post#: 43773--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debt Recovery Plus - Copthall Leisure Centre - London
DIR By: b789
Date: November 3, 2024, 12:21 pm
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If the address has not changed for that period and your V5C is
up to date, then it is likely that they never sent the required
documents as part of their usual scam.
How long are you likely to be "away" at any one time? If it were
to be for more than, say, two weeks, is there anyone else that
could check your mail for you?
This is a drawn out process. If an LoC is sent, you have 30 days
to respond before they can issue a claim. Even if you didn't
respond to an LoC, it doesn't really matter. What is important
is that any claim issued is responded to. Everything is done on
line but the claim will be sent by post.
When a claim is issued, they allow 5 days for service of the
claim and then you have 14 days from the date of service to do
the Acknowledgement of Service (AoS) which then gives you
another 14 days toile a defence. So as long as the AoS is
submitted within 14 days of service of the claim, you have 33
days (plus any non working days if day 33 falls on a weekend or
a bank holiday) to file a defence.
So, is any of the above information of use regarding any amount
of time you are likely to be "away"?
#Post#: 43774--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debt Recovery Plus - Copthall Leisure Centre - London
DIR By: allondon
Date: November 3, 2024, 12:27 pm
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Really useful - thank you.
I don't have any immediate plans to be way but 6 years is a long
period...
Is there any benefit in requesting the original PCN or
complaining to the Copthall Leisure Centre?
#Post#: 43778--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debt Recovery Plus - Copthall Leisure Centre - London
DIR By: b789
Date: November 3, 2024, 12:57 pm
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I would not advise an SAR at this stage. If/when they issue a
claim you ca guarantee that the Particulars of Claim (PoC) will
be woefully inadequate and an order for a strike out will be
made as it will be impossible to plead a valid defence due to
the claimants failure to comply with CPR 16.4.
With regards to contacting the Leisure Centre, that should have
been your Plan A from the outset. Plan A is always the easiest
way to get these PCNs cancelled. The Leisure Centre, as the
contracting agent, is jointly and severally liable for the
actions of its agent and as the sis likely to become a defended
claim, they may want to reduce their own liability by getting it
cancelled. Not good for business either if negative online
reviews start appearing warning potential customers of the risk
of being invoiced by unregulated private parking company for
£100 a pop.
#Post#: 43830--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debt Recovery Plus - Copthall Leisure Centre - London
DIR By: allondon
Date: November 4, 2024, 3:06 am
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Thank you, b789.
As anticipated, PCNs started to arrive for other visits.
It was issued on 25 October for the alleged contravention on 7
October, is this within the time limits?
I've added images to Imgur:
HTML https://imgur.com/a/MfjmWms.
Before I go back and take pictures - I do not wish to speculate
about the signage.
At this stage I wonder about the best way to deal with this (and
coming) PCNs.
I also wonder how to complain to Copthall Leisure Centre without
revealing the identity of drivers as these visits were to drop
off our son for school swimming lessons before 8:20am.
#Post#: 43851--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debt Recovery Plus - Copthall Leisure Centre - London
DIR By: b789
Date: November 4, 2024, 4:39 am
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As I mentioned, we do not need to see any debt collector
letters. They are irrelevant and can be safely ignored. The only
document that has any importance, is the original Notice to
Keeper (NtK). The one you have shown us, is not PoFA compliant
as it has not been "given" within the required timeframe in
order to be compliant with PoFA and so the Keeper cannot be
liable for the charge.
The wording is not compliant with the requirements of PoFA
either. So, I think it is fair to assume that GPSL are not
relying on PoFA to hold the keeper liable. They have no idea who
the driver is and there is no legal obligation on the Keeper to
identify the driver to an unregulated private parking company.
As for asking the Leisure Centre to get their agent to cancel
the PCNs without identifying the driver, all you have to tell
them that, as the Keeper, you have received a PCN. They have no
idea who the driver is either. A vehicle can be driven by any
person as long as they have the owners permission and at least
third party insurance. Anyone could be the driver.
You say that as the Keeper, you have received a PCN which has
been issued unfairly. The driver was only dropping off your son
for lessons at the Centre. No lie has been uttered and the
drivers identity is not revealed.
As for the PCNs, easy to defeat... as long as the unknown
drivers identity is not revealed. There is no legal obligation
on the known keeper (the recipient of the Notice to Keeper
(NtK)) to reveal the identity of the unknown driver and no
inference or assumptions can be made.
The NtK is not compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which
means that if the unknown driver is not identified, they cannot
transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the
known keeper.
Use the following as your appeal. No need to embellish or remove
anything from it:
--- Quote ---
> I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking
charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I
will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your
client landowner.
>
> As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL
the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper
of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even
substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no
admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions
can be drawn. Gemini Parking Solutions has relied on contract
law allegations of breach against the driver only.
>
> The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have
been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation
of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable.
Gemini have no hope at IAS, so you are urged to save us both a
complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.
--- End Quote ---
Gemini are likely to reject any appeal and, unfortunately, they
are IPC members, which means the secondary appeal through the
IAS does not have much chance either. The Independent Appeals
Service (IAS) is a kangaroo court that only looks after its
members interests and is definitely not "independent". You
should still appeal to them and any rejection is collated to
show the MHCLG why the enacted Parking (Code of Practice) Act
2019 needs to be expedited into effect.
#Post#: 43857--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debt Recovery Plus - Copthall Leisure Centre - London
DIR By: allondon
Date: November 4, 2024, 5:04 am
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Thank you.
Is it worth adding to the appeal that (if my understanding is
correct) according to paragraph 9 of PoFA 2012 "The relevant
period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14
days beginning with the day after that on which the specified
period of parking ended", meaning PCN was issued 3 days after 14
days period?
Or it will change nothing and my appeals to Gemini and IAS (I've
heard about their notoriety before) are nominal and the case
will proceed to the court anyway?
#Post#: 43859--------------------------------------------------
Re: Debt Recovery Plus - Copthall Leisure Centre - London
DIR By: b789
Date: November 4, 2024, 5:14 am
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Don't change anything the appeal. It is already stated that it
does not comply with all the requirements of PoFA. They know
that but hope you don't.
For an alleged contravention on the 7th Monday October, the
issue date of the NtK would have to have been no later than
Thursday 17th October.
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