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#Post#: 42851--------------------------------------------------
SJP but no NIP twice
DIR By: MOCG
Date: October 29, 2024, 7:14 am
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I have read through the other threads on this subject but wanted
to outline my specific circumstances as they vary a little
I recieved a litter through last week detailing 2 cases of
speeding from back & 2 cases of failing to provide info on the
driver. The original charges stem from May, and I subsequently
never recieved the NIPs
Relating to the speeading itself, 1 was 28 in a 20 and 1 was 30
in a 20, both from a temporary camera that had been set up on
quite a steep hill on the next street along from my house (I did
not know it was there). I only mention this part as I drive on
this road multiple time a day every day majority and do try to
stick under the limit but it can be quite easy to accidentally
go over 20. Regardless though, not disputing the speeding itself
Then, after checking, I realise that I never recieved the NIPs
as I hadnt remembered to update my V5C when I moved into a new
house. I updated insurance and driving license but must have
forgotten the V5C (even more frustrating as I had only updated
it about a year prior when I moved into a rental).
I read on the other threads about entering not guilty to both
but with the offer of changing to guilty for speeding if the
other is dropped but I just have a few questions:
1 - Is the fact there are 2 charges more likely to mean they
dont accept this plea and I should just plead guilty to both?
2 - Would the fact that there are 2 charges of each which would
total 18 points (and me losing my license) mean they would look
at this a little more leniantly at all?
3 - Is it worth mentioning any of the detail I gave above as
some form of mitigation?
-the fact that I did update it a year prior so it was
clearly just a mistake with no malice intended
-I have always responded within the time frame any time
anything like this has happened before
-the fact that they are both on the same road within 1
month of each other
4 - is my case one that should really go to court rather than
through the online plea and or include a solicitor?
Or any other thoughts? I just feel like this is such a huge
potential impact on me for what was an admin error (albeit one I
know I should have updated)
Thanks in advance
#Post#: 42855--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJP but no NIP twice
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: October 29, 2024, 7:26 am
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1, 2 & 3 - no.
4 - it’s going to court because there is no other disposal
method open to the police, except doing nothing. Not sure why
you want to spend money on a solicitor.
#Post#: 42856--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJP but no NIP twice
DIR By: 666
Date: October 29, 2024, 7:31 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: MOCG link ---
>
> I have read through the other threads on this subject but
wanted to outline my specific circumstances as they vary a
little
>
> I recieved a litter through last week detailing 2 cases of
speeding from back & 2 cases of failing to provide info on the
driver. The original charges stem from May, and I subsequently
never recieved the NIPs
>
> Relating to the speeading itself, 1 was 28 in a 20 and 1 was
30 in a 20, both from a temporary camera that had been set up on
quite a steep hill on the next street along from my house (I did
not know it was there). I only mention this part as I drive on
this road multiple time a day every day majority and do try to
stick under the limit but it can be quite easy to accidentally
go over 20. Regardless though, not disputing the speeding itself
>
> Then, after checking, I realise that I never recieved the NIPs
as I hadnt remembered to update my V5C when I moved into a new
house. I updated insurance and driving license but must have
forgotten the V5C (even more frustrating as I had only updated
it about a year prior when I moved into a rental).
>
> I read on the other threads about entering not guilty to both
but with the offer of changing to guilty for speeding if the
other is dropped but I just have a few questions:
>
> 1 - Is the fact there are 2 charges more likely to mean they
dont accept this plea and I should just plead guilty to both?
>
> 2 - Would the fact that there are 2 charges of each which
would total 18 points (and me losing my license) mean they would
look at this a little more leniantly at all?
>
> 3 - Is it worth mentioning any of the detail I gave above as
some form of mitigation?
> -the fact that I did update it a year prior so it was clearly
just a mistake with no malice intended
> -I have always responded within the time frame any time
anything like this has happened before
> -the fact that they are both on the same road within 1 month
of each other
>
> 4 - is my case one that should really go to court rather than
through the online plea and or include a solicitor?
>
> Or any other thoughts? I just feel like this is such a huge
potential impact on me for what was an admin error (albeit one I
know I should have updated)
>
> Thanks in advance
>
--- End Quote ---
Presumably the "letter" is a Single Justice Procedure Notice?
1. No.
2. Very unlikely
3. - No. No intent is required.
- Do you really want to portray yourself as a serial offender?
- No
4. Some justices will accept the "deal" online. If not, you have
to go to court and speak to the prosecutor. No need for a
lawyer.
#Post#: 42883--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJP but no NIP twice
DIR By: ManxTom
Date: October 29, 2024, 8:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: MOCG link ---
>
>
>
> 1 - Is the fact there are 2 charges more likely to mean they
dont accept this plea and I should just plead guilty to both?...
>
--- End Quote ---
Why on earth would you want to plead guilty to all four charges
and get yourself lumbered with 18 points and get banned?
Perhaps I'm wrong (and if I am I'll be quickly corrected) but
I'd have thought all you need to do is to follow the standard
advice on here - ie plead "Not Guilty" to all four charges, but
make it clear that if, and only if, the prosecution drop the two
failure to identify charges, you'd be willing to change your
plea to "Guilty" for the two speeding offences.
Of course you can only do this deal if you actually were the
driver when the two speeding offences were committed
#Post#: 42941--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJP but no NIP twice
DIR By: MOCG
Date: October 29, 2024, 11:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Southpaw82 link ---
>
> 1, 2 & 3 - no.
>
> 4 - it’s going to court because there is no other disposal
method open to the police, except doing nothing. Not sure why
you want to spend money on a solicitor.
>
--- End Quote ---
Do you mean that youd expect this will go to court if I plead
anything other than guilty? I guess my thought is just that I
want to somehow avoid losing my license and Im really not
familiar with how all this works where a solicitor might be?
Im kind of panicking, I dont know if its really black and white
so if I plead guilty then I get all the points & fine (the
notice does say its a reduced fine for pleading guilty), and if
I plead not guilty and it goes to court I still get all the
points & the full fine - or would going to court allow me to
plead a case and maybe hope for some leniancy?
#Post#: 42945--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJP but no NIP twice
DIR By: MOCG
Date: October 29, 2024, 11:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Presumably the "letter" is a Single Justice Procedure Notice?
1. No.
2. Very unlikely
3. - No. No intent is required.
- Do you really want to portray yourself as a serial offender?
- No
4. Some justices will accept the "deal" online. If not, you have
to go to court and speak to the prosecutor. No need for a
lawyer.
[/quote]
Yes sorry poor terminology, the SJP notice.
So you still think theres a good chance that they would accept?
I guess Im worried that by pleading not guilty and then going to
court they would view that negatively when they ask me what my
reason for pleading not guilty is, because Id have to say its
because of the V5C which had the incorrect address which then
makes it open and closed. Where if I plead guilty I could at
least say what happened and let them know that Id also lose 10%
of my salary if I was to lose my license. If you go to court and
speak to the prosecuter about the deal what reason would there
be for them to accept it?
But honestly I really arent too familiar with how all this works
and am really worried
I really appreciate the feedback
#Post#: 42946--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJP but no NIP twice
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: October 29, 2024, 11:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
By “going to court” I mean that your case will be dealt with by
a court, rather than by the offer of a driving course or a fixed
penalty.
I think you have been advised what to do, you just need to
listen to the advice.
#Post#: 42948--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJP but no NIP twice
DIR By: MOCG
Date: October 29, 2024, 12:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Its more that Im worried that by pleading not guilty they might
view it as wasting their time and then just go all out with all
the full punishment. And also considering that they found me
with the SJP notice I guess they must have worked out that the
V5C was wrong?
Ive spoken to a few solicitors for initial advice already with
mixed feedback:
-first one said theyd have to go to court, and that theyd start
by trying the plea deal option, but want crazy money for it
-second one said theres no defence and I should just plead
guilty
-third one said that apparently they would say its 6 points as
long as the failure to provide info charge relates to the same
speeding instance so thatd still make it 12 points between the 2
instances. I also Asked this one about making the plea and they
said itd definitely go to court, and that deal only really
applies if the address was correct but you didnt recieve it?
If my best option is still to try this then I will, Im just
trying to understand if the incorrect address on the V5C
basically means the plea has no chance of working
#Post#: 42951--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJP but no NIP twice
DIR By: 666
Date: October 29, 2024, 12:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: MOCG link ---
>
>
> If my best option is still to try this then I will, Im just
trying to understand if the incorrect address on the V5C
basically means the plea has no chance of working
>
--- End Quote ---
On this site (and its predecessor) we have seen literally
hundreds of cases where a plea deal has succeeded, and only ONE
where it has failed. In the latter case I believe the individual
concerned spectacularly failed the attitude test.
AIUI the CPS much prefer to secure a conviction for the
underlying (safety-related) driving offence rather than spend
court time trying a contested "technical" offence.
#Post#: 42952--------------------------------------------------
Re: SJP but no NIP twice
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: October 29, 2024, 12:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> So you still think theres a good chance that they would
accept?
--- End Quote ---
I think there has been only one reported occasion on here where
the "deal" was not accepted. That was where the defendant was
"less than polite" to the prosecutor, telling him what he could
and couldn't do. So the prosecutor showed him what he could do
and (I believe) he ended up with nine points.
This procedure is carried out up and down the land every day.
All court users (prosecutors, magistrates, and their legal
advisors) are familiar with it. In some areas they even make it
easy for defendants by laying the charges "in the alternative".
That is, they make it clear that if the defendant pleads guilty
to one charge, the other will be dropped. In other words, they
make the offer that we suggest you make.
--- Quote ---
> when they ask me what my reason for pleading not guilty is...
--- End Quote ---
You won't be asked. At present you cannot be convicted of
speeding unless you plead guilty. The police do not know who was
driving - that comes from the response to the request that you
did not receive.
--- Quote ---
> "If you go to court and speak to the prosecuter about the deal
what reason would there be for them to accept it?"
>
--- End Quote ---
Because they want an easy life! ;) Provided they are sure you
are not trying to gain an undue advantage they have no real
interest in prosecuting you for what, certainly in your case, is
caused by an administrative oversight. They know that the
consequences of that are far more severe than speeding itself.
This is your "leverage". You make the deal and the police get a
conviction for speeding, they avoid a trial for the other charge
and you avoid a conviction for it (which is far nastier in its
effects than speeding).
--- Quote ---
> -first one said theyd have to go to court, and that theyd
start by trying the plea deal option, but want crazy money for
it
--- End Quote ---
You can do it yourself for nothing.
--- Quote ---
> -second one said theres no defence and I should just plead
guilty
--- End Quote ---
He's an idiot and should not be giving such advice.
--- Quote ---
> -third one said that apparently they would say its 6 points as
long as the failure to provide info charge relates to the same
speeding instance so thatd still make it 12 points between the 2
instances.
--- End Quote ---
Ditto
--- Quote ---
> and that deal only really applies if the address was correct
but you didnt recieve it?
--- End Quote ---
Ditto. The circumstances you describe are often the ones which
lead to this procedure being necessary.
--- Quote ---
> Im just trying to understand if the incorrect address on the
V5C basically means the plea has no chance of working
--- End Quote ---
It's certainly your fault that you are in this position. But it
very often is the fault of the defendant and that's no reason
why the deal would not be accepted.
I can understand your concern, but there is no reason at all why
you should not successfully negotiate this procedure yourself
successfully. As above, some courts actually make it easy for
defendants by laying the charges as alternatives. Prior to the
pandemic it was virtually certain that a court visit would be
necessary to complete it. During Covid courts were eager to keep
as many people out of the courtroom as possible and they began
accepting it remotely. In many areas they have continued this.
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