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#Post#: 2947--------------------------------------------------
Birmingham clean air zone PCN, but my car is compliant!
DIR By: shaoxter
Date: August 9, 2023, 8:20 am
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Hello friends,
I have received a PCN from the lovely Birmingham City Council
for entering their CAZ and not paying. I am well aware that
there is a CAZ in place and I did enter it on the day in
question, however I was under the assumption that my car is Euro
4 petrol compliant and therefore not liable for the charge.
I live in London and the car is ULEZ compliant and I drive
around happily with no issues. However when I check the gov.uk
CAZ website (new one to me), it says I have to pay the charge.
If I look on my V5 there is only a CO figure but no HC or NOx
values which I'm guessing is where the issue lies.
How come the ULEZ and CAZ checkers produce different results
when the standards are the same? And what's the best way to
prove that my car is compliant?
Thanks in advance for everyone's help.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 2948--------------------------------------------------
Re: Birmingham clean air zone PCN, but my car is compliant!
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: August 9, 2023, 8:43 am
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ULEZ and CAZ work on same emission levels.
So a motor that is compliant in one should be in tother.
They use differing databases (dunno why) and both are or should
be populated by same DVLA data.
But for whatever reason they can contradict.
Your 2005 Porsche is on the date when euro 4 came in and
predates when newly registed had to be.
You can query here
HTML https://contact.drive-clean-air-zone.service.gov.uk/
You may need to get a conformity certificate from Porsche and
may find that you are not actually compliant...which would muck
up ULEZ as well
Don't miss deadline to challenge waiting for info.... I would be
phoning Porsche customer services today.
#Post#: 3127--------------------------------------------------
Re: Birmingham clean air zone PCN, but my car is compliant!
DIR By: slapdash
Date: August 12, 2023, 6:11 am
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The wording of the order may he problematic (and unjust).
--- Quote ---
> Compliant vehicles
> 4. A vehicle is a compliant vehicle if—
> (a) the vehicle meets the standards required of a compliant
vehicle for the purposes of this Scheme;
> and
> (b) particulars of the vehicle are for the time being entered
in the national register.
--- End Quote ---
It fails (b). But charging solely on that basis would be unfair.
--- Quote ---
> EMISSIONS STANDARDS FOR COMPLIANT VEHICLES
> 1.—(1) A vehicle meets the standards set out in Tables 1 and 2
if—
> (a) the vehicle is certified by the appropriate national
approval authority as having been manufactured
> to satisfy the EC emissions standard specified for that
vehicle in column (e) of the Table;
--- End Quote ---
This could be a problem.
Although the levels meet Euro 4 the emissions data as certified
by the VCA - who I believe are the approval authority - state it
as Euro 3. This could be an issue.
Even if the manufacturer CoC states it was manufactured to Euro
4 it may not be plain sailing.
It would be an absurd result that it was chargable to CAZ but
not ULEZ but differences in the wording could make that so.
#Post#: 3145--------------------------------------------------
Re: Birmingham clean air zone PCN, but my car is compliant!
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: August 12, 2023, 11:51 am
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As I read the VCA database the Boxster type 987 was introduced
in May 2005 and all models are certified as Euro 4. Prior to the
type 987 all Boxster models are certified as Euro 3.
It seems to me that the OP's Porsche is a Euro 3 spec as it was
registered in March 2005 and predates the type 987. Those models
might meet the Euro 4 standard but Porsche never had them
certified as such. If the OP obtains the type approval cert from
Porsche then it's likely to say Euro 3 and/or EC 2000. But worth
checking anyway.
The inclusion of the Euro class on the V5c and presumably the
DVLA record is a much newer innovation, came in around 2018 I
think. So any request for information on an older car won't
include the Euro class.
AIUI the ULEZ system will check for compliant NOx if no Euro
status is available. The OP's car has complaint NOx. Seems
Birmingham's system lacks such refinements.
#Post#: 3165--------------------------------------------------
Re: Birmingham clean air zone PCN, but my car is compliant!
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: August 13, 2023, 4:48 am
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I forgot to ask this. Does the Porsche have a personal
registration? Or has the registration been recently changed for
some reason?
#Post#: 3166--------------------------------------------------
Re: Birmingham clean air zone PCN, but my car is compliant!
DIR By: slapdash
Date: August 13, 2023, 4:53 am
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--- Quote ---
> 1.—(1) A vehicle meets the standards set out in Tables 1 and 2
if—
> (a) the vehicle is certified by the appropriate national
approval authority as having been manufactured
> to satisfy the EC emissions standard specified for that
vehicle in column (e) of the Table;
> (b) the vehicle has been retrofitted so that the limit values
for the emission of NOx specified for the
> vehicle in column (f) would not be exceeded during the
appropriate test or tests specified in
> column (g) of the Table; or
> (c) in respect of all other vehicles, the Central Clean Air
Zone Service is satisfied that the limit values
> for the emission of NOx specified for the vehicle in column
(f) would not be exceeded during the
> appropriate test or tests specified in column (g) of the
Table.
>
--- End Quote ---
It surely passes under (c). The VCA state the NOx level on their
database and it is well under 80mg. Surely this should satisfy
that the limit would not be breached if a "Type I" test
(whatever that is) were undertaken.
I assume the NOx is not listed on the V5c, but a print out of
the appropriate VCA page for the exact variant
HTML https://carfueldata.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx
Showing Euro 3 and NOx specified as approx 34mg may help in an
appeal.
Being Birmingham and no discount reoffered they may well simply
be "computer says no" but personally I think I would much rather
pay full fines at tribunal rather than half price.
#Post#: 3256--------------------------------------------------
Re: Birmingham clean air zone PCN, but my car is compliant!
DIR By: shaoxter
Date: August 14, 2023, 5:36 pm
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--- Quote from: Enceladus link ---
>
> I forgot to ask this. Does the Porsche have a personal
registration? Or has the registration been recently changed for
some reason?
>
--- End Quote ---
No personal registration changes since I have owned the vehicle.
I have requested a certificate of conformity from Porsche (free
service hooray!) so this should hopefully clear up the Euro
status and NOx emissions. However they said this could take up
to 28 days to arrive so in the meantime I guess I should still
make representations and state that this certificate is on the
way?
#Post#: 3557--------------------------------------------------
Re: Birmingham clean air zone PCN, but my car is compliant!
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 20, 2023, 5:28 am
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--- Quote from: shaoxter link ---
>
> I have requested a certificate of conformity from Porsche
(free service hooray!) so this should hopefully clear up the
Euro status and NOx emissions. However they said this could take
up to 28 days to arrive so in the meantime I guess I should
still make representations and state that this certificate is on
the way?
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, representations must be made by day 28 at the very latests
or else you've lost.
#Post#: 3559--------------------------------------------------
Re: Birmingham clean air zone PCN, but my car is compliant!
DIR By: slapdash
Date: August 20, 2023, 5:42 am
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Gather as much as you can and ensure you are in plentry of time.
Useful information would probably be:-
- Screen shot of VSA showing NOx,
- Copy of the part of charging order which states the all other
vehicle clause and your description that your vehicle is covered
by this
- Your V5c
- Screenshot showing ULEZ compliance
- CoC if arrived
You also need to do as much as you can to show that the
supporting documentation matches your model.
The CoC when it comes will not be specific to your actual car
unfortunately (it will show a type, not a vin).
Good luck. If they reject there is a tribunal available.
Don't use links. Embed screenshots or photos.
#Post#: 8448--------------------------------------------------
Re: Birmingham clean air zone PCN, but my car is compliant!
DIR By: shaoxter
Date: October 26, 2023, 7:08 am
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So to update and close out this thread: Birmingham city council
rejected my representations (no surprise really) so I appealed
to the traffic penalty tribunal and they cleared all my PCNs,
hooray!
For anyone in a similar predicament, the process was:
- Obtain a certificate of conformity from the manufacturer (took
4 weeks)
- Send in a copy of the CoC along with the V5C to the DVLA so
they could update the emissions details (took 4 weeks)
- Fill in a form on the CAZ website and upload a scan of the V5C
(updated instantly!)
Thanks for everyone's help and input, there were actually 4 PCNs
in the end which would have added up to a painful amount!
And lesson learned - never assume government databases are
consistent with each other. Just because a car is ULEZ compliant
does not mean it's CAZ compliant and vice versa.
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