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#Post#: 44707--------------------------------------------------
Re: Manchester City Council - Code 12 - Parked in a "Permit
Parking Zone" but sign blocked and not clear
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: November 9, 2024, 4:55 am
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Don't often disagree with our esteemed admin but this was a daft
challenge that gets you no further forward.
Choice is wait for the NTO to be served on your father and make
reps (he has to give permission if they come from you) or go
back to them now saying something like:
'I was puzzled to get the PCN and your rejection - I took some
pics at the time as I couldn't see any parking restriction signs
and now realise the one sign at the road entrance was hidden by
a lorry, which can also be seen in the enclosed pic taken by
your CEO. As I could not have been aware of this on driving into
the road I ask you to please cancel the PCN.'
#Post#: 44741--------------------------------------------------
Re: Manchester City Council - Code 12 - Parked in a "Permit
Parking Zone" but sign blocked and not clear
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 9, 2024, 8:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> Don't often disagree with our esteemed admin but this was a
daft challenge that gets you no further forward.
>
--- End Quote ---
Well it does, because it places the burden on the council to
prove (with evidence) that there was a restriction. One of the
most annoying scenarios I come across is where there is no
evidence from the authority of a restriction, but the
representations concede that a restriction existed in the first
place, as that effectively amounts to confession evidence.
So far the council has not advanced anything that proves there
was a restriction, so I would not make any admissions in this
regard. If at a later stage the council comes up with some
evidence, you can always add rebuttal evidence. If you admit
that there was a restriction, you can't take that back and you
might have shot yourself in the foot.
I would recommend waiting for the NTO and then making the same
representation again.
[member=3087]iffy_jiffy[/member] you shouldn't reply to the
council now, you must wait for the NTO before contacting the
council again.
#Post#: 44935--------------------------------------------------
Re: Manchester City Council - Code 12 - Parked in a "Permit
Parking Zone" but sign blocked and not clear
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: November 10, 2024, 12:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
We don't always agree but I would say the council will say
exactly the same and at tribunal if I were the adjudicator I'd
ask why the sign obstruction wasn't mentioned before.
#Post#: 44937--------------------------------------------------
Re: Manchester City Council - Code 12 - Parked in a "Permit
Parking Zone" but sign blocked and not clear
DIR By: iffy_jiffy
Date: November 10, 2024, 12:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanka both [member=1]cp8759[/member]
[member=2249]stamfordman[/member].
Is it worth me replying now and trying to kill this off now by
stating the sign was obstructed and not clearly visible as per
the CEO's and my own pictures?
Appreciate there is disagreement on this and you both know way
more than me on this.
#Post#: 44942--------------------------------------------------
Re: Manchester City Council - Code 12 - Parked in a "Permit
Parking Zone" but sign blocked and not clear
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 10, 2024, 12:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> We don't always agree but I would say the council will say
exactly the same and at tribunal if I were the adjudicator I'd
ask why the sign obstruction wasn't mentioned before.
>
--- End Quote ---
You're assuming the council turns up with evidence of a
contravention, in a surprising number of cases they simply don't
do that and the matter ends there. Remember the council will
often turn up with all sorts of irrelevant gibberish, see
Stanmore Quality Services Ltd (form. Stanmore Quality Surfacing
Ltd v City of London (2240377606, 9 November 2024)
HTML https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sdjM_qV7fH2k3YvWLjCfO56bK9YwNkkc/view<br
/>decided yesterday by Mr Walsh:
[indent]
The enforcement authority (EA) case summary is, I am afraid, an
unhelpful and in parts bizarre document which refers to a
traffic management order when what is alleged is a contravention
of primary legislation. It does not engage with the issues
raised in the appeal and in the representations by reference to
the relevant statutory provisions. I am not sure whether the
reference to "blocked urinals" within the case summary was
intended to be amusing or was a result of some careless 'cut and
pasting' but this bizarre observation, and indeed the bulk of
the case summary, had no relevance to the evidence and issued
raised by the appellant company. This sort of document should
not be provided to this tribunal again.
[/indent]
So, if there's no evidence of a contravention and the council
makes an issue out of some blocked urinals, it would be very
unfortunate if we'd made an admission that there was a
restriction to be contravened in the first place. It's better
not to put that in issue at all and leave the burden of proof on
the council, I would never want to deprive them of an
opportunity to mess things up.
[member=3087]iffy_jiffy[/member] regardless of whether you want
to show your cards or not, there is no point in replying now.
The council will not consider anything further that you have to
say until you get the Notice to Owner. If you write back now, no
matter what you say you'll get a templated letter back telling
you to wait for the NTO, so you'd just be wasting your time.
#Post#: 44944--------------------------------------------------
Re: Manchester City Council - Code 12 - Parked in a "Permit
Parking Zone" but sign blocked and not clear
DIR By: iffy_jiffy
Date: November 10, 2024, 12:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Cool [member=1]cp8759[/member]. I'll wait for the NTO.
Thanks,
Irfan.
#Post#: 44945--------------------------------------------------
Re: Manchester City Council - Code 12 - Parked in a "Permit
Parking Zone" but sign blocked and not clear
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: November 10, 2024, 1:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I agree, wait for the NTO.
Yes, cases are won where the evidence pack is deficient. But
here there is a very good evidence including the council's own
pic that the restriction could not be seen.
#Post#: 47054--------------------------------------------------
Re: Manchester City Council - Code 12 - Parked in a "Permit
Parking Zone" but sign blocked and not clear
DIR By: iffy_jiffy
Date: November 26, 2024, 4:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Morning, [member=1]cp8759[/member]
[member=2249]stamfordman[/member] @h c anderson, i've received
the NTO from Manchester City Council, could you advise next
steps please?
HTML https://imgur.com/a/GFgxf8Z
- Page 1
HTML https://imgur.com/a/i5yLp3x
- Page 2
HTML https://imgur.com/a/yOKcnrw
- Page 3
HTML https://imgur.com/a/N9SHZuW
- Page 4
Thanks all,
Irfan.
#Post#: 47062--------------------------------------------------
Re: Manchester City Council - Code 12 - Parked in a "Permit
Parking Zone" but sign blocked and not clear
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: November 26, 2024, 4:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
You have a choice whether to go with CP's reiteration of your
initial challenge or introduce evidence that the permit parking
sign was obstructed.
If the latter I would got on the lines of 'I was puzzled to get
the PCN at the time and took some pictures showing no signs. I
now see from Google Maps that the one sign on turning from x
road was obscured by a lorry, as can be seen by my pic and also
by a pic taken by your CEO.'
#Post#: 47186--------------------------------------------------
Re: Manchester City Council - Code 12 - Parked in a "Permit
Parking Zone" but sign blocked and not clear
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: November 26, 2024, 7:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[member=3087]iffy_jiffy[/member] my suggestion would be very
simple:
[indent]
Dear Manchester City Council,
I rely on my informal representations which I require you to
consider afresh as my formal representations.
Yours faithfully,
[/indent]
Send this online and take a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Also here's some useful evidence for the tribunal stage:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/VHFaZOD.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/ByfXETn.png
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