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#Post#: 3594--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: crxvtec
Date: August 20, 2023, 12:55 pm
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--- Quote from: DancingDad link ---
>
> [quote author=crxvtec link=topic=350.msg3442#msg3442
date=1692337111]
> There aren't any ticket machines to photograph. They've all
been taken out and now it's PayByPhone only.
>
--- End Quote ---
In that case I stick with my thoughts
There are no signs advising the motorist to park within marked
bays
The requirement within the traffic order cannot be complied with
without appropriate ticket machines, ie parking meters, you
cannot park in a bay relative to a payment machine if payment
machines do not exist.
[/quote]
There is small print on the sign, conditions of use 2c says you
get a PCN if you park outside the bay markings, but makes no
provision for when the markings aren't visible.
So will the appeal be based on the offence not occurring because
the bay markings were not visible, or should I word it
differently?
#Post#: 3773--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: crxvtec
Date: August 23, 2023, 4:29 pm
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Gonna go with this:
Dear Sirs,
We appeal as hirer. The PCN is issued incorrectly: the photos
taken by the CEO clearly show shops adjacent to the parked car,
and parked cars on both sides of the roadway with only space for
single file traffic down the middle. The photos are consistent
with a car being parked on The Broadway, Hatch End. Uxbridge
Road in Hatch End is a busy A road with traffic flowing in both
directions however the photos do not show the car being parked
on Uxbridge Road, as the PCN alleges. We would therefore
appreciate immediate cancellation of this PCN on the basis that
the offence alleged did not occur.
Yours faithfully,
Is that OK?
#Post#: 3778--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: August 24, 2023, 1:43 am
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--- Quote from: crxvtec link ---
> ..
> There is small print on the sign, conditions of use 2c says
you get a PCN if you park outside the bay markings, but makes no
provision for when the markings aren't visible.
>
> So will the appeal be based on the offence not occurring
because the bay markings were not visible, or should I word it
differently?
>
--- End Quote ---
Sorry, I missed your earlier comment.....What conditions on what
sign and where is this sign?
Do not ignore that markings are extremely faded and there are no
overt signs saying park in marked bays nor does the traffic
order require in any meaningful sense.
#Post#: 3827--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: crxvtec
Date: August 24, 2023, 4:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: DancingDad link ---
>
>
> [quote author=crxvtec link=topic=350.msg3594#msg3594
date=1692554142]..
> There is small print on the sign, conditions of use 2c says
you get a PCN if you park outside the bay markings, but makes no
provision for when the markings aren't visible.
>
> So will the appeal be based on the offence not occurring
because the bay markings were not visible, or should I word it
differently?
>
--- End Quote ---
Sorry, I missed your earlier comment.....What conditions on what
sign and where is this sign?
Do not ignore that markings are extremely faded and there are no
overt signs saying park in marked bays nor does the traffic
order require in any meaningful sense.
[/quote]
Please see image here:
HTML https://ibb.co/KKHS0v8
section 2c.
#Post#: 3835--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: crxvtec
Date: August 25, 2023, 1:58 am
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Tweaked response:
Dear Sirs,
We appeal as hirer. The PCN is issued incorrectly: the photos
taken by the CEO clearly show shops adjacent to the parked car,
and parked cars on both sides of the roadway with only space for
single file traffic down the middle. The photos are consistent
with a car being parked on The Broadway, Hatch End. Uxbridge
Road in Hatch End is a busy A road with traffic flowing in both
directions however the photos do not show the car being parked
on Uxbridge Road, as the PCN alleges. We would therefore
appreciate immediate cancellation of this PCN on the basis that
the alleged contravention did not occur.
Further, the bay markings on The Broadway are extremely faded
and aren’t recognisable. Bay markings are usually “T” or “L”
shaped and placed to allow drivers to determine if they are
parked in a bay or not. In this instance, with cars parked ahead
and behind, the markings were completely concealed underneath
vehicles and therefore rendering it impossible to know that they
were there. Neither are there overt signs saying “park in marked
bays”, nor does the Traffic Order require in any meaningful
sense as there are no machines present associated to specific
parking bays.
Yours faithfully,
#Post#: 3837--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: August 25, 2023, 2:29 am
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Thanks for the sign.
While they may point to it, signs still can only reflect the
traffic order conditions and assuming CP found the correct one
(good assumption) the order doesn't say it in that way.
I'm happier with the tweak BTW... I would lose the "hirer"
part...irrelevant and does infer that you may have issues at NTO
stage not being the Owner.
Which we may need to discuss if (probably will) they reject this
representation.
#Post#: 3849--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: crxvtec
Date: August 25, 2023, 7:34 am
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Thanks DD.
I'll remove the hirer part and send this in. I'll post the
response once I receive it.
#Post#: 3851--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: crxvtec
Date: August 25, 2023, 7:53 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Had to reduce to fit a 1000 character limit:
The CEO's photos show shops adjacent to the parked car, and
parked cars on both sides of the roadway with only space for
single file traffic down the middle. The photos are consistent
with a car being parked on The Broadway, Hatch End. Uxbridge
Road in Hatch End is a busy A road with traffic in both
directions however the photos do not show the car being parked
on Uxbridge Road, as the PCN alleges, therefore the alleged
contravention didn't occur.
Further, the bay markings on The Broadway are extremely faded
and aren’t recognisable. Bay markings are usually “T” or “L”
shaped and placed to allow drivers to determine if they are
parked in a bay or not. In this instance, with cars parked ahead
and behind, the markings were concealed under cars, rendering it
impossible to know that they were there. Neither are there overt
signs saying “park in marked bays”, nor does the Traffic Order
require in any meaningful sense as there are no machines present
associated to specific parking bays.
#Post#: 3868--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: August 25, 2023, 11:02 am
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The 'conditions of use' sign has all the hallmarks of being in a
car park, not on a road e.g. 'blue badge holders can park free
of charge, motorcycles are not permitted to park in P&D bays
etc.
#Post#: 3959--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 27, 2023, 1:02 pm
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--- Quote from: Pastmybest link ---
>
> you were parked on the Broadway not Uxbridge rd
>
--- End Quote ---
The traffic order described it as "The service road on the south
side of Uxbridge Road, fronted by Nos. 339 to 523 Uxbridge
Road", to borrow a phrase from Mr Teper, is that not good
enough?
The schedule then says that there is a maximum of 15 spaces, so
if the council then goes and paints 15 parking spaces in that
parking place, it's hard to say they've done anything wrong as
far as creating the bays & the restrictions.
The problem for the council is that the PCN doesn't say "The
service road on the south side of Uxbridge Road", it just says
"Uxbridge Road", so the contravention alleged on the face of the
PCN did not occur.
Aside from that, the strongest point is likely to be that the
council won't put in adequate evidence that it has properly
communicated the requirement to park within an individual space,
this is very much dependant on this photo
HTML https://ibb.co/KKHS0v8
not being included in any representations
(I have seen cases before where the best photos of the signage
are those submitted by the motorist, we really want to avoid
that).
Have you already sent the representations? It's not the end of
the world if you have, but if not we can refine them a little.
There is no 1000 character limit as you can just put the
representation in a PDF and upload it as an attachment.
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