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#Post#: 3266--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: guest179
Date: August 15, 2023, 4:03 am
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You posted: There were no markings visible anywhere so we paid
and left.
The photos clearly show the rear of your car straddling
markings, they also show clear markings behind your car. Your
statement is not credible IMO.
But whether the markings over which your car was parked are
clearly distinguishable as intra-parking place markings to a
diligent motorist is another matter as is whether the order
requires parking wholly within bay markings.
I put it this way because IMO you have to be clear about a
defence which is not undermined by your actions at the time and
the objective evidence of the photos.
#Post#: 3303--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 15, 2023, 10:46 am
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--- Quote from: crxvtec link ---
>
> CP, did you receive the TRO? 14 day discount period lapsing
soon so want to get something in ASAP ideally.
>
--- End Quote ---
The TMO is The Harrow (Parking Places) Traffic Order 2020
HTML https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1JA7T805jfccPCmSK4dp53N7vSvcnk-LP<br
/>and the relevant schedule is Schedule 68
HTML https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1H3AqGocmH9b7rtbF9c16BTb4KbRitmhv.
The relevant entry to the schedule seems to be item 1(b)(ii) on
page 2, although I think the words "a point opposite" should not
be there.
The schedule does define the number of parking spaces in each
parking place (i.e. bay), and Article 8 says you must be parked
within a space.
The one issue that remains is how these requirements are brought
to the attention of motorists. The CEO didn't take any photos of
the P&D machine, and GSV doesn't have the resolution to read
anything on it, see
HTML https://goo.gl/maps/uaJTqxBhgeM3v3We7
Are you able to go back and get some photos?
#Post#: 3389--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: crxvtec
Date: August 16, 2023, 5:33 pm
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HTML https://ibb.co/Q6ZkY3K
This is the sign wording. The machine wording isn't available
but would expect it to parrot this sign.
#Post#: 3393--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: August 16, 2023, 6:18 pm
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The relevant bit in Article 8 says
"(c) that every part of the vehicle is within the limits of a
parking bay, which is the
appropriate bay in relation to the ticket parking machine, in
which has been
or should have been inserted any coin or coins for the purpose
of payment of
the parking charge"
This is same wording as we've recently seen in another similar
case from another authority.
To me it fails simply because there is no payment machine that
the bay relates to. It is wording that harks back to parking
meters for each bay, without parking meters, the clause makes
little sense.
We also have the arguments on clarity of markings and that the
requirement to park in marked bays is not conveyed on
appropriate signage (though may be on any payment machine?)
#Post#: 3397--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: Circle87
Date: August 17, 2023, 1:52 am
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Best to pop back there if you can and get a couple of photos of
the nearest ticket machine, even if it's all the way up the
road, and it's wordings on/around it.
#Post#: 3442--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: crxvtec
Date: August 18, 2023, 12:38 am
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There aren't any ticket machines to photograph. They've all been
taken out and now it's PayByPhone only.
#Post#: 3448--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: August 18, 2023, 3:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: crxvtec link ---
>
> There aren't any ticket machines to photograph. They've all
been taken out and now it's PayByPhone only.
>
--- End Quote ---
In that case I stick with my thoughts
There are no signs advising the motorist to park within marked
bays
The requirement within the traffic order cannot be complied with
without appropriate ticket machines, ie parking meters, you
cannot park in a bay relative to a payment machine if payment
machines do not exist.
#Post#: 3452--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: Pastmybest
Date: August 18, 2023, 5:14 am
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--- Quote from: Pastmybest link ---
>
> Yep wrong location, not a sure fired winner with all
adjudicators as location is not a statutory requirement but most
adjudicators agree that as the PCN states the CEO has reason to
believe you commit a contravention at a location you must at
least be at that place
>
--- End Quote ---
you were parked on the Broadway not Uxbridge rd
#Post#: 3453--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: DancingDad
Date: August 18, 2023, 5:22 am
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--- Quote from: Pastmybest link ---
>
> [quote author=Pastmybest link=topic=350.msg3120#msg3120
date=1691825110]
> Yep wrong location, not a sure fired winner with all
adjudicators as location is not a statutory requirement but most
adjudicators agree that as the PCN states the CEO has reason to
believe you commit a contravention at a location you must at
least be at that place
>
--- End Quote ---
you were parked on the Broadway not Uxbridge rd
[/quote]
I hadn't picked up on that despite you saying it
before...apologies.
Tis a good point, though it seems to be a service road and is
noted as such in the TMO schedule CP pointed to earlier, it is
called the Broadway on Google.
Certainly worth throwing in, if only to see how the council
respond.
#Post#: 3588--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Council code 24 poor markings
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: August 20, 2023, 11:07 am
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--- Quote from: crxvtec link ---
>
> There aren't any ticket machines to photograph. They've all
been taken out and now it's PayByPhone only.
>
--- End Quote ---
Then it's hard to see how the council could possibly discharge
its duty to communicate the requirement to park within a marked
bay. Throw in the other arguments discussed above, and it's
definitely a case worth pursuing.
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