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#Post#: 68275--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus Gate 33E
DIR By: brazilianx
Date: April 23, 2025, 7:31 am
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Hi Bustagate
I have just fallen victim of the very same and have read your
story with keen interest. What was the conclusion - what is the
succinct appeal in the first stage?
Here is my PCN as wanted to confirm we're talking about the same
situation Camrose Ave Busgate April 2025
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/harrow-camrose-avenue-bus-gate-33e-(april-2025)/msg68253/#msg68253
Many thanks
#Post#: 68437--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus Gate 33E
DIR By: Bustagate
Date: April 24, 2025, 7:36 am
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The hearing was adjourned and will reconvene on Tuesday 29th
April.
I don't know how the Adjudicator will respond to my arguments.
They are, in essence:
1. The TMO specifies that the bus restriction applies to a
different section of road (to the north of the northern traffic
island, which is the one for westbound traffic; or to the south
of the southern traffic island, which is the one for eastbound
traffic)
2. Some of the signage (curved arrows, width-restriction signs,
BUS GATE road markings) has not been placed in accordance with
the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016.
Harrow cannot rely on that signage as forming any part of its
argument that you have contravened the restriction. The blue
roundels are smaller than recommended in the Traffic Signs
Manual (600mm diameter instead of 750mm), so can be seen less
well from a distance.
3. Harrow will go on at length about having placed advance
warning of the width restriction but there is no advance warning
of the bus restriction. The only indication of this is at the
restriction. There is no difference in the legislation in terms
of providing advance notice of one restriction against another.
Harrow have created what is, in effect, a short nearside
with-flow bus lane, for which there would be a lead-in taper
(thick dashed white line before the start of the bus lane) which
directs motorists away from the lane which is about to become a
bus lane. That sets a benchmark for the signage appropriate to
this situation. Other signage could be used, such as lane
markings which went from the nearside kerb to the traffic island
to show drivers where to go.
4. Drivers need to start moving out when the blue roundels come
into sight. The absence of such signage (and the curved arrows
don't count as they are unlawful and so void) makes the signage
inadequate. By the judgement in [2010] EWHC (Admin) 894 if the
signage is inadequate, no liability arises (see paragraph 65 of
the judgement), so that's it.
#Post#: 68477--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus Gate 33E
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: April 24, 2025, 11:24 am
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I see they are attending. I wouldn't mind observing. ;)
#Post#: 68559--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus Gate 33E
DIR By: Bustagate
Date: April 25, 2025, 4:03 am
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They are meant to be attending. Whether they do is a different
matter.
#Post#: 68580--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus Gate 33E
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: April 25, 2025, 5:02 am
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I think they will as you have rattled a few cages.
#Post#: 68631--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus Gate 33E
DIR By: Bustagate
Date: April 25, 2025, 9:46 am
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Whose cages? Is that a warning?
#Post#: 68777--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus Gate 33E
DIR By: Hippocrates
Date: April 26, 2025, 6:23 am
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Harrow's of course.
#Post#: 68846--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus Gate 33E
DIR By: Bustagate
Date: April 26, 2025, 2:49 pm
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That's a relief.
#Post#: 69105--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus Gate 33E
DIR By: Bustagate
Date: April 28, 2025, 3:52 pm
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For those who are interested, I attach the main document
submitted for appeal 2250053451, which is reconvening tomorrow
with two representatives of Harrow Borough Council.
[attachment deleted by admin]
#Post#: 69115--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow Camrose Avenue Bus Gate 33E
DIR By: fraser.mitchell
Date: April 28, 2025, 5:31 pm
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Basically they have no incentive whatever to improve matters,
because it is such a nice little earner for them.
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