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#Post#: 40550--------------------------------------------------
Harrow PCN Parked in residents bay without valid permit, BB
holder, half of badge fell off dashboard
DIR By: dbcc33
Date: October 13, 2024, 11:29 am
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Hi All,
Wonder if you can help with this one:
1. Parked in a residents bay with BB but one half of it (the
main half not clock half) must have fallen from the dashboard as
i shut the car door.
2. Was gone from car for maybe 5 mins to offload shopping and
elderly, disabled relative who takes several minutes just to get
settled and PCN already there when arriving to put shopping bag
back in car minutes later.
3. Although the PCN states 10:32 to 10:39 i.e. 7 minutes, the
photos provided only show 10:39 and 10:40 so is it possible the
warden only observed for 1 min and not 7 mins? it felt as if I
was only away from the car for 5 mins (but i wasnt counting).
4. is there a reasonable amount of time they need to give a BB
holder, because for someone with restricted mobility it is not
unreasonable to take a much longer time to transfer from car to
house.
5. Other info to note is that i did write to the council a long
time ago about replacing the blue holder for the badge as it had
become disintegrated over time, but they never replied. The
reason it was 2 halves is because the holder had broken in half.
Had it been replaced, this may not have happened.
6. I previously had a PCN cancelled many many years ago for
badge falling off (but that was the whole badge not half of it)
so maybe this counts against me. But equally the last PCN i had
cancelled was them issuing an illegal PCN and then apologising
to me so don't know if i can use this in my favour or you cant
conflate different PCNs.
Anyway the summary is yes it was a mistake, but wanted your
expert opinion on whether it was worth an appeal or not.
I dont understand why they cant just have electronic records of
BB holders like they did with road tax discs instead of
penalising BB holders for genuine mistakes when they already
have on record if a car is BB registered.
Any expert advice would be appreciated.
thank you.
PCN here:
HTML https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/raiuh8ac0h0848ap9lklf/ADzsA7su5XB6-OjZJW7ir_U?rlkey=tmpa21fgivlt7u60u9qsrtbex&st=lb0x33vx&dl=0
#Post#: 40554--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow PCN Parked in residents bay without valid permit, BB
holder, half of badge fell off dashboard
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: October 13, 2024, 11:50 am
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Is it your Blue Badge? Or does it belong to your "elderly,
disabled relative"?
Please get a copy of both sides of the BB. With an on-street PCN
such as this it's always worth a go at initial informal
represenations as the Council will re-offer the discount if they
refuse. So you have nothing to lose by having a go.
I suggest a humble, contrite and polite letter of apology
explaining what happened. Enclose a copy of both sides of the BB
and quote the name and address of the BB holder. Make it clear
that your releative was in the car at the relevant times.
Terribly sorry, it was accidental, I'll make sure it doesn't
happen again, I wasn't trying to evade a parking charge, an
honest mistake, terribly sorry and please use your discretion to
cancel the PCN. It wouldn't be in the interests of justice to
pursue the case etc etc. See what comes back.
Are you the Reistered Keeper of the car and is the name and
address correct and current on the V5c registration doc? Don't
just assume it is, dig it out and check.
PS. It will be the BB holder's responsibility to obtain a new
badge holder or wallet if the existing one is damaged.
#Post#: 40558--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow PCN Parked in residents bay without valid permit, BB
holder, half of badge fell off dashboard
DIR By: dbcc33
Date: October 13, 2024, 12:48 pm
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it is my fathers BB (he doesnt drive), i was driving him home
and only left the car to offload him and his shopping.
You can say its his responsibility re the holder but he is
cognitively impaired and therefore could no way have done this
himself. in any case theres little that can e done if they just
ignore you.
in the reps should i mention they never replied about replacing
it or will that only irritate them?
the v5 etc is correct
#Post#: 40571--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow PCN Parked in residents bay without valid permit, BB
holder, half of badge fell off dashboard
DIR By: dbcc33
Date: October 13, 2024, 1:58 pm
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also just out of curiosity whose responsiblity is it to make
sure it is properly displayed - his or mine? because if its his,
then his disability means he forgets lots of things (he has
memory impairment which i can prove from medical letters) so
surely a reasonable adjustment is well reasonable? If its my
responsbility then its a moot point.
#Post#: 40574--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow PCN Parked in residents bay without valid permit, BB
holder, half of badge fell off dashboard
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: October 13, 2024, 2:20 pm
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There are only four pics and none looking for the badge inside -
did it fall on the floor or seat? And how?
The PCN is your responsibility as owner but if your father had
say knocked it off getting out then that would be factor. We
had a case recently where I think a disabled person insisted on
setting the clock (wrongly).
They must consider any challenge and especially one with a BB.
You do have three written off though.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/NxUhRcc.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/sINN2dA.jpeg
#Post#: 40636--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow PCN Parked in residents bay without valid permit, BB
holder, half of badge fell off dashboard
DIR By: dbcc33
Date: October 14, 2024, 3:36 am
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Thanks for your reply Stamfordman
The answer is i don't know how it got knocked off but when i
returned to the car was on the passenger side floor and it could
well have been my dad as he was sat on that side and dragged his
walking stick across seat and dash getting out so it could have
been that, but without a video recording how could i possibly
know why?
The previous written off ones were not under the same
circumstances and the most recent one was a council error which
they apologised for.
#Post#: 40641--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow PCN Parked in residents bay without valid permit, BB
holder, half of badge fell off dashboard
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: October 14, 2024, 4:11 am
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Send a polite challenge saying what you think happened and
include a pic of the BB, saying this was an accident and you
were entitled to park there.*
Emphasise that with a disabled person ensuring their wellbeing
led to overlooking the accident with the BB.
Say if the CEO had checked the side window he may well have seen
the fallen BB.
*I'm assuming that in Harrow BB holders can park in resident
bays? Was this a permit only bay or a shared use bay (permit and
pay/display)?
#Post#: 40645--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow PCN Parked in residents bay without valid permit, BB
holder, half of badge fell off dashboard
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: October 14, 2024, 4:40 am
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- being drafted while the previous post was being posted...
If the required permit* is not displayed then the contravention
is proved.
A claim that a BB was held and was displayed but somehow fell
into the footwell goes to mitigation, it is not a statutory
defence i.e. one which if the authority accept means they must
cancel the PCN.
IMO, all you can do as suggested earlier is to write to polite
and contrite challenge asking the authority to cancel using
their discretionary powers.
*- this is a permit bay. You imply that even if a BB was
displayed this would provide parking rights. However, this must
be a council initiative because generally BB holders cannot park
in permit bays reserved for specified users which this is, it's
not shared use. Does the council permit BB holders to park in
res bays?
(from the Govt's publication: Blue Badge Scheme - Rights and
Responsibilities)
Places where you cannot park
Parking places reserved for specific users such as resident’s
bays or loading bays. You may wish to check whether a particular
local council has chosen to exempt Blue Badge holders from these
restrictions.
#Post#: 40663--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow PCN Parked in residents bay without valid permit, BB
holder, half of badge fell off dashboard
DIR By: dbcc33
Date: October 14, 2024, 6:34 am
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Thank you all for your responses. I have been parking there
frequently for over 5 years with a BB and it has been fine. The
traffic warden himself said its ok for BB holders to park there
so i guess there must be provision.
I accept that it was a mistake but with strong mitigation. so
basically you are saying they can use their discretion but it
isnt a proper defence to proceed to tribunal for example?
#Post#: 40669--------------------------------------------------
Re: Harrow PCN Parked in residents bay without valid permit, BB
holder, half of badge fell off dashboard
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: October 14, 2024, 6:50 am
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The adjudicator cannot exercise the council's power of
discretion i.e. determine a case on the grounds of mitigation.
I dont understand why they cant just have electronic records of
BB holders like they did with road tax discs instead of
penalising BB holders for genuine mistakes when they already
have on record if a car is BB registered.
The car isn't 'BB registered', only Motobility vehicles are.
Your father may use his BB in anyone's vehicle in any qualifying
area, effectively the whole country except some boroughs in
London. Furthermore, you cannot use your vehicle and claim BB
benefits unless the holder is with you or having been/to be
transported. so you can see the impossibility of what you
suggest.
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