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#Post#: 40389--------------------------------------------------
BAILIFF - 7 Days. Warrington Borough Council, PCN Driving onto a
Bus Only Road, Scotland Road - Warrington,
DIR By: TheConfusedMotorist
Date: October 11, 2024, 10:27 am
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Hi guys.
So, I received a Bailiff letter from Bristow & Suitor very
recently over a PCN dated 11 June 2022. It was sent to an old
address and I was totally unaware I had this PCN. Now, I'm not
sure if me or the wife even drove onto the bus lane its been so
long. I am unsure if we informed the DVLA when we moved out of
the property in Feb 2022, I am sure we did. Is there anything
to do now? I rang the Bailiffs and they said I have 7 days from
08/Oct/24 to pay or an enforcement officer will come. I got a
number for The Traffic Enforcement Office and they emailed me a
TE9 & TE7 form to return to them asap.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
HTML https://i.ibb.co/PTwRbGR/20241011-160153.jpg
HTML https://ibb.co/PTwRbGR
HTML https://maps.app.goo.gl/5Yak6nAmEFacYPCx7
[member=1]cp8759[/member] I apologise if there is no need to tag
you - I'm just worried about the time I may have to reply/do
something
Much appreciated
#Post#: 40390--------------------------------------------------
Re: BAILIFF - 7 Days. Warrington Borough Council, PCN Driving
onto a Bus Only Road, Scotland Road - Warrington,
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: October 11, 2024, 10:47 am
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What is the VRM (numberplate) of the car.
What address is on the V5C logbook.
#Post#: 40397--------------------------------------------------
Re: BAILIFF - 7 Days. Warrington Borough Council, PCN Driving
onto a Bus Only Road, Scotland Road - Warrington,
DIR By: Pressman
Date: October 11, 2024, 11:27 am
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The letter you have received is not an official enforcement
notice. It is a preliminary attempt by Bristow and Sutor to
verify addresses they believe are connected to the debtor.
This correspondence is to confirm your whereabouts, which would
enable them to proceed with enforcement actions.
Contact the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) on 0200 123 1059,
quoting the PCN number WI81858182. During the security check,
provide the postcode linked to your previous address or the one
on your vehicle's V5 registration document.
It is crucial to keep your current address private. Doing so
would update the Warrant with this information, potentially
leading to bailiffs turning up at your new residence.
If the TEC accepts your previous address, the Warrant is legally
defective and unenforceable without liability on the council. Be
sure to document the date you spoke to TEC, as this proves when
the Warrant showed your old address, protecting you from
tampering with the issue date should bailiffs attempt to act
against you at your new address
In legal terms, Bristow and Sutor are not authorised as a
company to collect money or enforce a Warrant of Control, as
this power is strictly reserved for an individual enforcement
agent with a valid certificate under section 63(6).
It appears Bristow and Sutor may be attempting to bypass paying
the enforcement agent’s commission, profiting directly from fees
and charges, which raises concerns about the integrity of their
process.
#Post#: 40398--------------------------------------------------
Re: BAILIFF - 7 Days. Warrington Borough Council, PCN Driving
onto a Bus Only Road, Scotland Road - Warrington,
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: October 11, 2024, 11:38 am
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??
The letter says a NoE was sent on 26 Sept.
OP, addresses on letters and notices are vital, therefore 'I
received' needs to be examined.
What you've posted is a reminder, it states clearly that a NoE
was sent on 26 Sept.
The question is, to what address?
So OP, let's call your current address A and your previous one
B(let's hope there isn't a C or D).
Which address is on the reminder dated 8 Oct, A or B?
To which address was the NoE sent? (presumably the same, but I'm
asking nonetheless). If you don't know then phone and ask.
If neither is A, how did you get hold of the reminder?
#Post#: 40405--------------------------------------------------
Re: BAILIFF - 7 Days. Warrington Borough Council, PCN Driving
onto a Bus Only Road, Scotland Road - Warrington,
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: October 11, 2024, 11:54 am
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--- Quote from: stamfordman link ---
>
> What is the VRM (numberplate) of the car.
>
> What address is on the V5C logbook.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes please. What is the reg of the car?
Is the name and address on the Bristow & Sutor letter your name
& current address? We don't need to see it.
Did you receive the Notice of Enforcement allegedly sent on 26th
Sept 2024, that's mentioned in the letter?
#Post#: 40418--------------------------------------------------
Re: BAILIFF - 7 Days. Warrington Borough Council, PCN Driving
onto a Bus Only Road, Scotland Road - Warrington,
DIR By: TheConfusedMotorist
Date: October 11, 2024, 12:21 pm
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Ok guys, thanks for your replies.
1. Yes please. What is the reg of the car?
- NL59 UBW
2. Is the name and address on the Bristow & Sutor letter your
name & current address? We don't need to see it.
- Yes
3. Did you receive the Notice of Enforcement allegedly sent on
26th Sept 2024, that's mentioned in the letter?
- Yes and binned as spam I believe, I'll ask the wife. (Which I
guess was quite a dumb thing to do)
4. Which address is on the reminder dated 8 Oct, A or B?
- A
5. Contact the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) on 0200 123
1059, quoting the PCN number WI81858182. During the security
check, provide the postcode linked to your previous address or
the one on your vehicle's V5 registration document?
- Vehicles address was my current one when it was sold 4-5 weeks
ago. I've already rang them quoting and gave my current address
as its the one on the letter and which the V5 was registered.
6. It is crucial to keep your current address private. Doing so
would update the Warrant with this information, potentially
leading to bailiffs turning up at your new residence?
- They know my current address
I may have acted with naivety having never had a PCN before. So
Bristow & Sutor know my address as do TEC. Is it easier to just
pay it? - It rubs me the wrong way, as its from over 2 years ago
and I was completely unaware :-\
#Post#: 40436--------------------------------------------------
Re: BAILIFF - 7 Days. Warrington Borough Council, PCN Driving
onto a Bus Only Road, Scotland Road - Warrington,
DIR By: stamfordman
Date: October 11, 2024, 1:08 pm
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Who did you sell the car to - private or trade? Last logbook
issued 13 September 2024 - a key is what date the logbook was
changed before that but I'm not sure it's worth bothering as
it's so long ago and that you didn't get the PCN and other
letters probably means the V5C was wrong.
I think you should pay it to avoid a visit fee and try the out
of time process.
#Post#: 40449--------------------------------------------------
Re: BAILIFF - 7 Days. Warrington Borough Council, PCN Driving
onto a Bus Only Road, Scotland Road - Warrington,
DIR By: ivanleo
Date: October 11, 2024, 5:53 pm
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[member=2999]TheConfusedMotorist[/member] it is crucial that you
determine all the dates that are relevant. I suggest you make
two subject access requests:
1) One to DVLA asking for your full address history, including
the dates of any changes of address on the vehicle record, and
2) One to Warrington Borough Council, asking for a copy of all
correspondence issued.
Once you have that information we can work out if it's all your
fault, or whether there was some failure on the part of the
council, and therefore whether it's worth exploring the Out of
Time route.
In the meantime you may want to consider paying now to avoid any
further charges, if your Out of Time application is successful
you should get everything back.
#Post#: 40451--------------------------------------------------
Re: BAILIFF - 7 Days. Warrington Borough Council, PCN Driving
onto a Bus Only Road, Scotland Road - Warrington,
DIR By: Pressman
Date: October 11, 2024, 6:15 pm
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Others will provide input on addressing the traffic
contravention directly.
From a legal enforcement perspective, it is important to note
that any enforcement action concerning the vehicle is
ineffective, as you have already sold it. Under paragraph
18(a)(1)(d) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and
Enforcement Act 2007, bailiffs are prohibited from using force
to gain entry to a residential property when recovering unpaid
traffic contravention debts.
It's important to be aware of a potential vulnerability. If you
own another vehicle outright and park it outside your property,
it could become an easy target for enforcement actions.
While this letter raises certain issues, it is not a statutory
notice. Despite being contractually authorised to recover debts
on behalf of the local authority, the company in question lacks
the statutory power to enforce the warrant of control. Such
authority is explicitly reserved for individuals holding an
enforcement certificate, as section 63 of the Tribunals, Courts
and Enforcement Act 2007 outlines.
Technically speaking, the demand letter requests £190, which
includes a £75 compliance fee. If you pay the £115 balance
directly to the limited company, the enforcement power would no
longer be exercisable under paragraph 6 of Schedule 12 of the
same Act.
The bailiff company may misleadingly argue that they have a
statutory right to allocate the payment between themselves and
the council, citing regulation 13 of the Taking Control of Goods
(Fees) Regulations 2014. However, this position is legally
flawed.
By applying for a fee assessment under Civil Procedure Rule
84.16, you will clarify that Regulation 3 of the 2014 Fees
Regulations exclusively reserves the statutory fee structure for
enforcement agents. Importantly, such authority is granted
solely to individuals certificated under section 63 of the
Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007. This process ensures
transparency and reinforces enforcement fees' legal boundaries,
safeguarding your position while promoting accountability.
You can pay the £215 directly to the council and provide formal
written notice to the limited company, confirming that the debt
has been settled per the Warrant of Control. As per paragraph 59
of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act
2007, the enforcement agent bears liability should they proceed
with any enforcement action linked to a no longer enforceable
Warrant. This approach safeguards your position and ensures
compliance with the law, preventing unnecessary enforcement
steps.
#Post#: 40456--------------------------------------------------
Re: BAILIFF - 7 Days. Warrington Borough Council, PCN Driving
onto a Bus Only Road, Scotland Road - Warrington,
DIR By: Enceladus
Date: October 11, 2024, 10:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
"23/07/2024 13:16
23/07/2024 13:13
23/07/2024 08:45
07/06/2024 14:29
07/06/2024 14:29
20/07/2023 00:03
06/07/2023 12:46
08/09/2022 16:23
There are some anomolies in the case progression history on the
Council's website.
The Charge Certificate was issued on the 8th Sep 2022. The case
seems to have been put "On Hold" and came off hold on the 20th
July 2023.
Regardless there was no progression to the next stage until 7th
June 2024 when the charge (debt) was registered with the Traffic
Enforcement Centre (TEC) at Northampton County Court.
The debt registration would have generated an Order for Recovery
(Notice of Debt Registration) which would have been posted to
the Registered Keeper address as originally provided by the
DVLA.
However that's 21 months since the Charge Cert was posted. 21
months is surely an unacceptable delay even if it's legal?
On 23rd July 2024, so 6 weeks later after the OfR, a warrant was
authorised and given to Bristow & Sutor to enforce. Bristow &
Sutor sent a Notice of Enforcement on the 26th September 2024.
That's very tardy and atypical at more than 9 weeks. The NoE's
are normally dated and supposedly posted within a couple of days
of the warrant.
It implies to me that B&S likely sent an NoE to the original RK
address before the end of July 2024, the warrant couldn't be
enforced and the bailiff tracked the OP to his current address,
informed the Council who applied for the warrant to be re-sealed
(re-issued) to the new address and then B&S sent a new NoE to
the new address on 26th Sep 2024. Alas the OP destroyed that
document as junkmail.
Your best option to minimise the potential damage to your wallet
seems to be to pay the £195 and then submit an Out of Time
application and Witness Statement. That's to avoid an additional
bailiff charge of £235, assuming the bailiff has an enforceable
warrant which I suggest they do have.
Your OOT will need to be clearly worded and factually accurate
to stand any chance. So don't submit anything until you have all
the facts nailed down and reviewed. But don't delay, else the
Council will claim that you closed the case by paying the PCN.
If the TEC refuse your OOT then you would be in for a minimum of
a further £119 to have the decision reviewed. £119 is more than
the £75 enforcement fee included in the £195.
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