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#Post#: 41451--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
DIR By: b789
Date: October 19, 2024, 5:16 am
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CPM do accept it. Tusker are telling porkies. All they do is
transfer liability to the Hirer, which in this case is the
employer. They include copies of the required documents and then
they are off the hook. Simple.
The employer then waits to receive an NtH and decides how they
want to handle it. They either appeal themselves as the Hirer or
they give employee a letter of authority to handle on the
companies behalf.
Please keep us updated on progress.
#Post#: 41454--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
DIR By: S.M
Date: October 19, 2024, 5:30 am
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--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> CPM do accept it. Tusker are telling porkies. All they do is
transfer liability to the Hirer, which in this case is the
employer. They include copies of the required documents and then
they are off the hook. Simple.
>
> The employer then waits to receive an NtH and decides how they
want to handle it. They either appeal themselves as the Hirer or
they give employee a letter of authority to handle on the
companies behalf.
>
> Please keep us updated on progress.
>
--- End Quote ---
I am tempted to get my mate to raise an official complaint to
Tusker - he`s paying Tusker an admin fee too, surely they should
have sent that transfer of liability to CPM, just saying that
CPM doesn`t accept it shouldn`t be accepted at face value.
#Post#: 41457--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
DIR By: b789
Date: October 19, 2024, 5:37 am
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It certainly requires an answer from Tusker as to why they don't
simply do the transfer of liability to the Hirer, irrespective
of whether the vehicle is on a scary purchase scheme. They know
that the company is the Hirer and it ice then up to the company
to deal with it as the Hirer.
If they are saying that they have some form of agreement with
the Hirer that they will not deal with PCNs, then that is likely
unlawful. I'd press for evidence of CPMs refusal to accept
liability transfer. All this would come out in any claim by the
employee to recover their loss due to Tusker's incompetence.
A check on the BVRLA guidelines for this situation would be a
useful read.
#Post#: 41567--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: October 20, 2024, 11:08 am
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Back to the law!
OP, it is immaterial what CPM want. The law is CLEAR.
IF Tusker are a 'vehicle-hire firm' and if the vehicle is being
operated under a 'hire agreement' then the following applies:
Hire vehicles
13(1)This paragraph applies in the case of parking charges
incurred in respect of the parking of a vehicle on relevant land
if—
(a)the vehicle was at the time of parking hired to any person
under a hire agreement with a vehicle-hire firm; and
(b)the keeper has been given a notice to keeper within the
relevant period for the purposes of paragraph 8(4) or 9(4) (as
the case may be).
(2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to
recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in
the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning
with the day after that on which that notice was given, the
creditor is given—
(a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm
to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to
a named person under a hire agreement;
(b)a copy of the hire agreement; and
(c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under
that hire agreement.
(3)The statement of liability required by sub-paragraph (2)(c)
must—
(a)contain a statement by the hirer to the effect that the hirer
acknowledges responsibility for any parking charges that may be
incurred with respect to the vehicle while it is hired to the
hirer;
(b)include an address given by the hirer (whether a residential,
business or other address) as one at which documents may be
given to the hirer;
(and it is immaterial whether the statement mentioned in
paragraph (a) relates also to other charges or penalties of any
kind).
This is NOT transferring liability as such, it is about the
vehicle-hire firm relieving themselves of liability. Whether the
creditor then wishes to issue a Notice to Hirer this is their
choice but it is a two-part process:
1. The vehicle-hire firm provide the creditor with the specified
docs, this then gets them off the hook;
2. If the creditor wishes they may issue a NTH.
Sorry to be late to this but if your friend has the specified
docs then they could write to CPM on behalf of Tusker- he has
their written authority- and relieve Tusker of liability. As it
is, it appears that a NTH wouldn't go to your friend but to his
employer.
There is NO way in which your friend can have a demand direct
from CPM, he is NOT a party to these proceedings, these are:
The creditor;
Tusker;
The hirer.
If he thinks he can finesse this so that his employer is not
involved then he is mistaken.
So:
Is Tusker a vehicle--hire firm?
Is there a qualifying 'hire agreement'?
'hire agreement” means an agreement which—
(i)provides for a vehicle to be let to a person (“the hirer”)
for a period of any duration (whether or not the period is
capable of extension by agreement between the parties); and
(ii)is not a hire-purchase agreement within the meaning of the
Consumer Credit Act 1974;
(b)any reference to the currency of a hire agreement includes a
reference to any period during which, with the consent of the
vehicle-hire firm, the hirer continues in possession of the
vehicle as hirer, after the expiry of any period specified in
the agreement but otherwise on terms and conditions specified in
it; and
(c)“vehicle-hire firm” means any person engaged in the hiring of
vehicles in the course of a business.
#Post#: 41615--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
DIR By: b789
Date: October 20, 2024, 6:41 pm
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Is there an echo in here? ::)
#Post#: 43326--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
DIR By: S.M
Date: October 31, 2024, 9:42 am
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Hi - Sorry I missed these notifications. CPM just replied and it
seems that they have transferred liability to my friend and a
notice has been generated - Please see below the appeal reply.
My friend has not received the letter as of yet. Hopefully this
should be coming soon.
--- Quote ---
> PCN REFERENCE NUMBER:
> DATE OF PARKING EVENT: 18th August 2024
>
>
> PAYMENT DUE DATE: 14th November 2024
> TOTAL AMOUNT DUE: £60.00
> Dear Mr ,
> Thank you for your appeal against the above Parking Charge
Notice.
> At UK CPM we consider all appeals on a case-by-case basis. We
take each appeal very seriously and thoroughly investigate any
evidence that has been provided. We appreciate your
circumstances and understand this is not a situation anyone
would like to find themselves in; however, these parking
conditions have been put in place to ensure fair usage for all
motorists and support the needs of our client. After careful
consideration, it is unfortunate that I am writing to you today
to advise that on this occasion, your appeal has been
unsuccessful.
> The decision to uphold your parking charge notice has been
made on the following basis.
> Whilst we note the comments and reason for appeal, as per our
photographic evidence, the vehicle was parked in contravention
of the advertised terms and conditions. As the vehicle was
parked without a valid permit on display, we can confirm that
this PCN has been issued correctly.
> Please note, a new notice will automatically be generated and
sent to you, as the liability has been transferred into your
name. This is for your records only and does not allow you to
appeal again internally or transfer liability. You now have 14
days from the date of your new notice to make payment at the
reduced fee of £60.00. If payment is not received within 14
days, the fee will increase to the full amount of £100.00.
> You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure
and therefore you now have two options; either pay or appeal to
the Independent Appeals Service (IAS) - you cannot do both.
> To make payment of the total amount due as shown above, please
use one of the following payment options;
> •
> •
> •
> Alternatively, if you do not agree with your internal appeal
outcome and you wish to dispute the matter further, as you have
complied with our internal appeals procedure you may use, and we
will engage with, the IAS Standard Appeals Service providing you
lodge an appeal to them within 21 days of this rejection.
> The Independent Appeals Service (www.theIAS.org) provides an
Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type.
If you decide to appeal to the IAS, you will need to visit their
website and use your PCN reference and corresponding vehicle
registration. All PCN's will be uploaded to the IAS website by
the end of this working day.
> If you appeal this charge further then you will lose the
ability to pay at the reduced rate (if applicable). In the event
that your IAS appeal is unsuccessful, the full amount for the
PCN will then be payable. If you lodge an appeal with the IAS
and then subsequently pay the charge prior to that appeal being
determined, then the appeal will be withdrawn, and you will not
be given a further opportunity to contest the charge.
> If you do not wish to dispute the matter further and payment
is not received within 28 days of the date of this
correspondence then additional charges may be incurred, for
which you may be liable. If the charge continues to remain
outstanding, the matter may be later referred for litigation in
the County Court which could result in a County Court Judgment
being made against you; this may impact on your ability to
obtain credit in the future.
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 43337--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
DIR By: b789
Date: October 31, 2024, 10:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Who received this letter? Who is it addressed to? Who is the
"friend" that liability has been transferred to?
It admits that liability has been transferred to someone. It is
not clear from what you say, who that is.
Your "friend" appears to be the person who liability has been
transferred to but they have not yet received a PCN in their
name. Liability as what? The Keeper? The Hirer?
#Post#: 43478--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
DIR By: S.M
Date: November 1, 2024, 6:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: b789 link ---
>
> Who received this letter? Who is it addressed to? Who is the
"friend" that liability has been transferred to?
>
> It admits that liability has been transferred to someone. It
is not clear from what you say, who that is.
>
> Your "friend" appears to be the person who liability has been
transferred to but they have not yet received a PCN in their
name. Liability as what? The Keeper? The Hirer?
>
--- End Quote ---
My Friend received this appeal response to his email. Apparently
the liability has been transferred to him - but so far no notice
received.
#Post#: 43500--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
DIR By: b789
Date: November 1, 2024, 9:07 am
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But we don’t know what your friend wrote in their appeal. Please
show us.
I also remind you about my advice in this post on the 18t
October on the likely outcome of any appeal:
HTML https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/pcn-broadstairs-botany-bay-cpm-lease-vehicle/msg41391/#msg41391
#Post#: 43503--------------------------------------------------
Re: PCN Broadstairs Botany Bay - CPM - Lease Vehicle
DIR By: H C Andersen
Date: November 1, 2024, 9:21 am
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The hirer is your friend's employer, yes?
Therefore as a matter of law your friend may not be held liable
by the creditor in lieu of the keeper, it's simply not possible.
They may hold your friend liable as driver, in which case PoFA
is irrelevant, there's no such thing as a NTH or NTK and the
creditor may pursue them pure and simply as a party to the
(alleged breached) of contract. There are NO 'notices' as such,
the creditor as prospective claimant may issue a Letter of Claim
but this is Administration of Justice procedure, not PoFA.
Having said this, let's see the 'notice which is for your[your
friend's] records only' when it arrives.
While PoFA doesn't apply, the creditor's Code of Practice does
and in this case it appears that an appeal to IAS should be made
and should be successful simply because the creditor has no
legal right under PoFA to hold your friend liable. The whys and
wherefores of the breach etc. etc. are not the issue.
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