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DIR Return to: Speeding and other criminal offences
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#Post#: 39295--------------------------------------------------
First NIP received after 14 days - registered keeper
DIR By: 56eps
Date: October 3, 2024, 1:57 pm
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Hi all,
So glad I found you as I need some next steps advice please.
I received first NIP dated 7.6.24, for speeding offence on
1.5.24.
I completed the S172 saying that I was the driver and registered
keeper though the first NIP was not sent in time and could not
be regarded as having been properly served in accordance with
the 1988 Act. Citing that failure to comply with the
aforementioned provisions is a bar to prosecution; see Gidden v
Chief Constable of Humberside [2009] EWHC 2924 (Admin).
I requested no further action to be taken.
Kent police refused this request. Police say that when they
checked DVLA database on 3.5.24 there was no registered keeper.
They then searched for my insurer and then I was given the first
NIP 30-something days later.
I found that odd - this vehicle was bought the month prior from
a trader but I received the DVLA registration certificate very
quickly. So, I ask DVLA for a SARs to be sure. DVLA say I was
the registered keeper on 1.5.24 and that the police have access
to the DVLA database to verify registered keepers.
It seems to me, there must be some kind of data lag between DVLA
and the police - I am not sure. All I am certain of is I was the
registered keeper on the date of the offence and all details on
the certificate are accurate. Therefore, I should have been
served this NIP within 14 days.
I sent the police the SARs from DVLA and the police still would
not cancel this.
Today (3.10.24) I received the charges to make my guilty/not
guilty plea.
What do I do now? I suppose I make a guilty plea but state that
this was not served in accordance with the 1988 Act? Any advice
would be very much appreciated. It just seems so ridiculous it
has gone this far when I have evidence from the DVLA that I was
the registered keeper on that date!
Help please :)
#Post#: 39299--------------------------------------------------
Re: First NIP received after 14 days - registered keeper
DIR By: Southpaw82
Date: October 3, 2024, 2:07 pm
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There is a delay between the DVLA data being amended and that
data being loaded to the PNC. So your “certain” may not be
certain at all.
#Post#: 39301--------------------------------------------------
Re: First NIP received after 14 days - registered keeper
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: October 3, 2024, 2:08 pm
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S. 1 RTOA 1988 says that you cannot be convicted (subject to the
exceptions in ss. 1 & 2), not that you cannot be prosecuted.
The police do not obtain keeper details directly from the DVLA,
but from the PNC. The PNC is supposedly updated overnight from
the DVLA - which could potentially introduce a delay of up to a
day - assuming that the data updated to the PNC is correct.
Based on what you have told us, most likely is that they entered
the incorrect VRM.
#Post#: 39304--------------------------------------------------
Re: First NIP received after 14 days - registered keeper
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: October 3, 2024, 2:09 pm
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--- Quote from: 56eps link ---
>
> Today (3.10.24) I received the charges to make my guilty/not
guilty plea.
>
--- End Quote ---
What are these "charges" of which you speak?
#Post#: 39321--------------------------------------------------
Re: First NIP received after 14 days - registered keeper
DIR By: 56eps
Date: October 3, 2024, 3:59 pm
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--- Quote from: andy_foster link ---
>
> S. 1 RTOA 1988 says that you cannot be convicted (subject to
the exceptions in ss. 1 & 2), not that you cannot be prosecuted.
>
> The police do not obtain keeper details directly from the
DVLA, but from the PNC. The PNC is supposedly updated overnight
from the DVLA - which could potentially introduce a delay of up
to a day - assuming that the data updated to the PNC is correct.
>
> Based on what you have told us, most likely is that they
entered the incorrect VRM.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, I can see that is a possibility for sure. The DVLA wrote
"The police have access to DVLA records via internal systems to
obtain keeper details themselves". But does not say whether
there would be any delay caused. At any rate, I would think two
working days later, the system should have shown a registered
keeper.
I am just working on the basis of the facts I have available,
and it still seems that the police should have cancelled this
one.
I have the SARs from DVLA, the registration certificate, the
first NIP and correspondence back and forth with the police.
Though I do need to make a decision in how to respond to the
charge sheet for the speeding offence (38mph in 30) received
today. I suppose my best option is to plead guilty with court
attendance to show the evidence from DVLA?
#Post#: 39323--------------------------------------------------
Re: First NIP received after 14 days - registered keeper
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: October 3, 2024, 4:37 pm
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--- Quote ---
> I suppose my best option is to plead guilty with court
attendance to show the evidence from DVLA?
--- End Quote ---
If you do that it is likely that the court will not accept your
guilty plea. What you would be presenting are reasons why you
should not be convicted.
#Post#: 39324--------------------------------------------------
Re: First NIP received after 14 days - registered keeper
DIR By: 56eps
Date: October 3, 2024, 4:47 pm
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--- Quote from: NewJudge link ---
>
> [quote]I suppose my best option is to plead guilty with court
attendance to show the evidence from DVLA?
--- End Quote ---
If you do that it is likely that the court will not accept your
guilty plea. What you would be presenting are reasons why you
should not be convicted.
[/quote]
Ah, yes that makes sense. I am not someone who gets loads of
speeding offences, so I have much to learn. So, what exactly do
I need to plead? This Single Justice Procedure says I have three
options; plead guilty, plead not guilty, and don't respond.
I thought I needed to plead guilty because yes, I was speeding.
But the NIP was late and therefore null. I need guidance,
clearly! ;D
#Post#: 39328--------------------------------------------------
Re: First NIP received after 14 days - registered keeper
DIR By: NewJudge
Date: October 3, 2024, 5:10 pm
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I think you have just two choices: plead guilty or plead not
guilty.
If you plead guilty not much you can say will significantly
alter the sentence so in that respect it doesn't matter whether
you attend court or not. The matter of the NIP is not mitigation
(i.e. it does not lessen the seriousness of the offence). As I
said, it is a reason why you should not be convicted.
If you plead not guilty you will have to convince the court that
the efforts made by the police to trace your details so as to be
able to serve your NIP within 14 days were not good enough.
Whether that would succeed is anybody's guess, but I think it
may not.
There is a big difference in the financial penalty. You face a
fine of half a week's net income. This will be reduced by a
third if you plead guilty. You will also pay a surcharge of 40%
of that fine. But prosecution costs are the big difference. A
guilty plea will see you pay about £90. Failure following a
trial will see you ordered to pay around £650. Three points will
be imposed in either eventuality.
#Post#: 39331--------------------------------------------------
Re: First NIP received after 14 days - registered keeper
DIR By: andy_foster
Date: October 3, 2024, 5:16 pm
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The exception that the police are purporting to rely on is that
it was not reasonably practicable to obtain the keeper's details
in time to serve a NIP within the 14 days. That would, in the
first instance, be for the prosecution to prove.
If the words have the same meaning as the s. 172 defence, I
would suggest that the bar is reasonably high
#Post#: 39352--------------------------------------------------
Re: First NIP received after 14 days - registered keeper
DIR By: 56eps
Date: October 4, 2024, 2:42 am
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--- Quote from: andy_foster link ---
>
> The exception that the police are purporting to rely on is
that it was not reasonably practicable to obtain the keeper's
details in time to serve a NIP within the 14 days. That would,
in the first instance, be for the prosecution to prove.
>
> If the words have the same meaning as the s. 172 defence, I
would suggest that the bar is reasonably high
>
--- End Quote ---
Is that to say the bar is high for the prosecution or the
defence?
Further details regarding the timeline.
Police requested registered keeper details from my insurance on
7.5.24
On 14.5.24, these details were "scanned onto the file". I am not
sure when the details were received by the police, only when the
police scanned them in.
The first NIP was sent on 7.6.24. The police knew of my details
for at least 3 weeks by that point. So, no real sense of urgency
there.
With your statement above, that the police are relying on the
details being not practicable to obtain timely - does the
significant wait time between knowing my details from the
insurer to providing me the NIP make any dent to the
prosecution's argument?
Thank you, btw
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